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Rome, authority and Argumentum Ad Infinitum
Daniel's Place - (Reformata et semper reformanda) ^ | December 26, 2014 | PuritanReformed

Posted on 03/20/2015 4:37:31 PM PDT by RnMomof7

An objection, however, is often made to the doctrine of infallibility, in limine, which is too important not to be taken into consideration. It is urged that, as all religious knowledge rests on moral evidence, not on demonstration, our belief in the Church's infallibility must be of this character; but what can be more absurd than a probable infallibility, or a certainty resting on doubt?— I believe, because I am sure, and I am sure, because I supposed. Granting then that the gift of infallibility be adapted, when believed to unite all intellects in one common confession, the fact that it is given is as difficult of proof as the developments which is to prove, and nurgatory therefore, and in consequence improbable in a Divine Scheme. The advocates of Rome, it has been urged, "insist on the necessity of an infallible guide in religious matters, as an argument that such a guide has really been accorded. Now it is obvious to inquire how individuals are to know with certainty that Rome is infallible... how any ground can be such as to bring home to the mind infallibly that she is infallible; what conceivable proof amounts to more than a probability of the fact; and what advantage is an infallible guide, if those who are to be guided have, after all, no more than an opinion, as the Romanists call it, that she is infallible?" 81.1

This argument, however, excepted when used, as is intended in this passage, against such persons as would remove all imperfection in the proof of Religion, is certainly a fallacious one. For since, as all allow, the Apostles were infallible, it tells against their infallibility, or the infallibility of Scripture, as truly as against the infallibility of the Church; for no one will say that the Apostles were made infallible for nothing, yet we are only morally certain that they were infallible. Further, if we have but probable grounds for the Church's infallibility, we have but the like for the impossibility of certain things, the necessity of others, the truth, the certainty of others; and therefore the words infallibility, necessity, truth, and certainty ought all of them to be banished from the language. But why is it more inconsistent to speak of an uncertain infallibility than of a doubtful truth or a contingent necessity, phrase which present ideas clear and undeniable? In sooth we are playing with words when we use arguments of this sort. When we say that a person is infallible, we mean no more than that what he says is always true, always to be believed, always to be done. The term is resolvable into these phrases as its equivalents; either then the phrases are inadmissible, or the idea of infallibility must be allowed. A probable infallibility is faith and obedience towards a person founded on the probability of his never erring in his declarations or commands. What is inconsistent in this idea? Whatever then be the particular means of determining infallibility, the abstract objection may be put aside. 81.2 [John Henry Cardinal Newman, Essays on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 58-9]

Before there was Catholic Answers, there was John Henry Newman, the apostate from Anglicanism. On the issue of the infallibility of the Roman Church, there is surely some continuity between the two. Protestants, in response to Roman claims on the infallibility of the Church, rightly ask how one can be infallibly certain of that. Newman's response is to say that this same argument can be used against the infallibility of the Apostles and the Scripture, the former probably as a polemic against Anglicanism and the latter against Protestantism as a whole. Since the same argument can be used against other views, either one has to abandon all usage of the words "infallibility, necessity, truth and certainty," or the argument is to be discounted altogether.

Newman's move, while an interesting play on his part, does not actually solve the problem. One can use the same argument to argue for the infallibility of the apostles or the infallibility of Scripture, or basically any authority. Put that (X is infallible) as the thesis, then when one's opponents inquire how one knows that (X is infallible) is true, then claim that either the thesis X is infallible (e.g. Scripture is infallible) is true, or that these words (infallibility, necessity, truth, and certainty) have no meaning whatsoever. Once the form of the argument is recognized, we see that Newman's argument is begging the question. It works only to the extent that his thesis is seen to be the default by which all others are to be judged, but since the thesis itself is questioned, one cannot claim that as the default.

So Rome's claims of authority is circular, and in the end it is no more certain than other claims. That it is circular does not necessarily make it wrong, but it must be admitted that the reason why Romanism is right is because one bases one's faith on the claimed authority of the Roman church (i.e. Sola Ecclesia). The major problem for Romanism now is the inconsistency of its authority figure. Ever since Vatican II, the Roman church has been ever shifting in its positions on all manner of Christians doctrines. Where once heretics and schismatics were anathemized, now Protestants are regarded as "separated brethren" and Muslims and Jews part of the plan of God (Vatican II Document Lumen Gentium). If one's authority is ever shifting, how can it function as the axiom of one's system?

Against Laudian Anglicanism, it is impossible to see the Church Fathers as being authoritative for understanding the Christian faith, since one does not have the entire corpus of Patristic writings and there is always the possibility, and indeed there are, divergences between the various church fathers. As for apostles, the only way we know what the apostles have taught is in the Scriptures. Supposed apostolic tradition mediated to the church fathers always have the question how much is actual mediation, and how much is addition, and thus one cannot appeal to the church fathers as necessarily indicative of apostolic tradition.

Scripture alone can stand as its own authority. The canon of Scripture is fixed and it is closed. Textual variants, because of the multitude of textual evidences, can be evaluated and the original text more or less arrived at. We therefore can know what Scripture teaches and it wouldn't change from age to age, pace Rome, and there wouldn't be problems of incompleteness and divergences, pace Laudian Anglicanism. Scripture is autopistos, authenticating itself as the supreme authority. Can one be "infalllibly sure" of the authority of Scripture? No, in the same way as one cannot be infallibly sure of anything. But one can be sure of its infallibility, while one cannot be sure of the infallibility of any others.

So this Romanist apologetic fails because (1) it cuts all ways, (2) the authority contradicts itself often, (3) Only Scripture is autopistos, while the rest are not. We do not have to fear Rome's promotion of Sola Ecclesia, for it is a broken reed wounding all who rely on it.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: ecclesiology; epistemology; romanism; scripture
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1 posted on 03/20/2015 4:37:31 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; Iscool; ...

authority ping


2 posted on 03/20/2015 4:38:41 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

You haven’t “feared” it for 500 years, so why do you still have to prove it to yourselves?


3 posted on 03/20/2015 4:39:52 PM PDT by 9thLife ("Life is a military endeavor..." -- Pope Francis)
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To: RnMomof7

Bore, bore, bore.


4 posted on 03/20/2015 4:41:00 PM PDT by miss marmelstein (Richard the Third: "I should like to drive away not only the Turks (moslims) but all my foes.")
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To: miss marmelstein

More like the Great Apostasy!! Maranatha!!


5 posted on 03/20/2015 4:45:12 PM PDT by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: RnMomof7
For since, as all allow, the Apostles were infallible,...

Where does this idea originate? I have never thought the Apostles were infallible. The Council at Jerusalem is a great example of how they could be wrong. To their credit they came to recognize their errors, but infallible NO!

6 posted on 03/20/2015 4:54:08 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: RnMomof7
Scripture alone can stand as its own authority. The canon of Scripture is fixed and it is closed.

Fixed? Closed? By whom? When? On whose authority? Where is it written down?

7 posted on 03/20/2015 4:56:54 PM PDT by Campion
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To: wmfights

The Apostles were most definitely infallible when they were writing Scripture, since Scripture is inspired, and inspiration is a higher gift than infallibility.


8 posted on 03/20/2015 4:58:03 PM PDT by Campion
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To: RnMomof7
Good work mom. If you are getting flack, you must be over the target. 😄😄😃😇😊
9 posted on 03/20/2015 5:06:25 PM PDT by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: miss marmelstein

Nope, very interesting.


10 posted on 03/20/2015 5:07:19 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: Campion
The Apostles were most definitely infallible when they were writing Scripture, since Scripture is inspired, and inspiration is a higher gift than infallibility.

As is so often the case the qualifier gets rewritten to cover the original statement.

No one questions that Scripture is God Breathed. I think it's laughable that from this comes the claim that the Apostles were infallible, especially when Scriptures shows them being rebuked for their errors. Also, it should be pointed out that the NT wasn't exclusively written by the Apostles.

11 posted on 03/20/2015 5:18:30 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: Campion; wmfights
The Apostles were most definitely infallible when they were writing Scripture, since Scripture is inspired, and inspiration is a higher gift than infallibility.

All apostles did not write books, and all books were not written by apostles ...The scripture is written by prophets (one that speaks for God)...and so it is infallible ...there is nothing to suggest that gift extended beyond those that God ordained to write the NT books

12 posted on 03/20/2015 6:01:27 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Campion
Fixed? Closed? By whom? When? On whose authority? Where is it written down?

And Rome gets its authority where?

13 posted on 03/20/2015 6:04:00 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: wmfights
Where does this idea originate? I have never thought the Apostles were infallible. The Council at Jerusalem is a great example of how they could be wrong. To their credit they came to recognize their errors, but infallible NO!

That was said by an RC apologist ..(the indented portion) that is being addressed..Newman is a RC "big wig"..on colleges Rome has "Newman centers"

14 posted on 03/20/2015 6:06:41 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
The canon of Scripture is fixed and it is closed.

Which canon of Scripture and how are we to know?

15 posted on 03/20/2015 6:08:44 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Mark17
Good work mom. If you are getting flack, you must be over the target

Catchy statement, but wouldn't you also be getting flack if you were bombing a friendly by accident? :-)

16 posted on 03/20/2015 7:21:11 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido

Obama and Hillary are getting a lot of flack - they’re on target?


17 posted on 03/20/2015 7:24:35 PM PDT by AbnSarge
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To: RnMomof7

This Newman character was a real nutjob...He’s the perfect example why Jesus hated humanistic philosophers...


18 posted on 03/20/2015 8:15:23 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: wmfights
Where does this idea originate? I have never thought the Apostles were infallible. The Council at Jerusalem is a great example of how they could be wrong. To their credit they came to recognize their errors, but infallible NO!

Must have originated in pagan Rome...Of course the apostles were not infallible...Scripture is all that is infallible...

19 posted on 03/20/2015 8:17:14 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Campion
Fixed? Closed? By whom? When? On whose authority? Where is it written down?

Don't you ever have any new questions that haven't been answered a thousand times???

20 posted on 03/20/2015 8:19:12 PM PDT by Iscool
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