A Protestant "comes out" (the effects of sola scriptura)

Little Catholic Bubble ^ | March 19, 2015 | Leila

[NYer]

For the first ten or fifteen years after my reversion, my main apologetical interest was in debating and discussing with Protestants. These days, I rarely engage the Protestant/Catholic debate, and I focus more on the "culture wars" by debating secularists and atheists. Protestants are fellow Christians, our brothers and sisters in Christ, and the Church is very clear on that.

However, every so often, I revisit the issues that divide Protestants and Catholics because Truth matters, and because the Church is a stronger witness to the world when we are undivided. At the Last Supper, hours before His death, Jesus prayed that his followers all be one. Not some loosey-goosey "oneness of fellowship", but a Trinitarian oneness. True unity, no dissension, no separation. 

So, there was this epic thread that took place on my Facebook page the other day, and while I very much encourage you to read through all 700+ comments (get some popcorn and settle in; it's that good!), I have excerpted for you here some comments from a woman named Renee Joy, who jumped into the discussion and unexpectedly "came out" as a Protestant-turning-Catholic! She had been researching and praying and pondering this move privately, but this was her first public statement! 

Her insights and thoughts on this journey are truly compelling, and I think anyone on either side of the Protestant-Catholic divide will appreciate her intellect, sincerity, and deep faith. Please note, this is not a discussion about sin vs. sanctity (there are sinners and saints in both camps), rather, this is a discussion about doctrinal truth vs. doctrinal chaos.

Read the whole Facebook thread, here (it's public), and meanwhile, here's just a taste of what Renee Joy had to say (I've strung together several of her comments) as she primarily engaged a thoughtful Protestant named Allison. 

+++++++

After 38 years in the Protestant world -- growing up Southern Baptist, under the teachings of Adrian Rogers (and any good S.B. knows who that is), going to a Evangelical Christian school K-12 heavily dominated by Reformed Presbyterians and non-denominational Evangelicals and Southern Baptists in the heart of the Bible Belt, I was frustrated with "church" for many reasons.

A few years ago, I started meeting Catholics, and realizing, oh my goodness, they are not the cult I was taught, and hey, wait a minute -- they make a lot more sense than anything I've seen. If you've lived Protestant then you know that Protestants cannot agree on anything. Sola scriptura my big foot! That's the issue! Everyone interprets everything their own way, and it has led to a complete disaster.

There are more denominations and subsets of those denominations, than is even believable. Independent Baptists eschew the Southern Baptists, who of course teach that the Methodists and Presbys are completely off base, the Lutherans and Episocopalians are totally different, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assembly of God, COGIC, none of them agree on much of anything -- not the way they define the relationship of God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, not on baptism, not on what is considered "necessary".

Predestination? Huge point of contention -- so much so that most Baptist churches say that it's just a mistranslation, yet the Presbys insist it's foundational. Some allow female preachers, teachers, elders. Some allow homosexual marriage. The majority are fine with artificial birth control even though we all know that it risks causing miscarriage. The divorce rate is astronomical. The churches tend to be either dominated by men (with women in a completely subservient mode with no opinions or purpose) or dominated by women, mostly single mothers with kids, or married women whose husbands stay home. The average family size is tiny -- and their belief of "prolife" really just translates to anti-abortion. They don't agree on the proper method or function of baptism (sprinkle? dunk? indoor dunk or lake?). Even all the Baptists don't agree with the other Baptists -- you have Southerns, Independents (which can be very conservative or far out there), and a ton of little offshoots.

I've seen more Southern Baptist churches split over the dumbest things: a fight about the new carpet color (blue or burgandy???), adultery with the pastor/secretary, fights about what version of the Bible to use (and don't get me started on the nonsense that is the "Message" or the many discrepancies in the various translations), even one split occurred over the replacement of a steeple. And don't get me started on "cultural relevance" -- the turning of most Protestant churches into semi-heathen pep rally environments mixed with rock concerts, where trashy, revealing clothes are the norm, and the focus is on having a good time, getting "pumped up for the Lord" -- on "experiences" and "feelings", not Truth, not discipleship, sacrificial living, ministry.

I'm not Catholic yet -- but the more I walk, the closer Rome looks on the horizon. The dissension in the Protestant churches, for me, stems from the fact that yes, they were based on "protesting"-- someone saying "I don't like this, I'm taking it out". And ever since then, that's what they've done. Each denomination, purging out the things they don't want/like/understand, until they're all practicing some mutilated version of pseudo-Christianity that leaves the congregants unsatisfied, unguided, and unhappy.

Sola scriptura, which clearly is not supported by Scripture itself, since it would mean that we could only use the Old Testament, has resulted in at least a dozen different translations of the "Bible" -- many vastly different than the others, and hundreds, if not thousands, of tiny "churches", each thinking they have it all right, none in agreement with others, and a lot of folks walking around saying "I'm saved" but having lives that look no different in functionality than the people walking around saying "I don't believe in anything except being good to fellow man."

The confusion that has arisen from everyone trying to interpret things their own way, has led to a disaster. And if Protestants truly believed that the Holy Spirit alone interpreted Scripture, and that church meetings were for fellowship (let us not forsake assembly), then there wouldn't be preachers sharing anecdotes and interpretations. There wouldn't be denominations.

And I will say, my husband and I were both raised very heavily in the Southern Baptist/Protestant world -- with my husband's family in the ministry in multiple generations, both of us raised in private Protestant schools, etc. There's a lot of false teaching that we've received over the years, about Catholicism, that we're having to research and refute, if that makes sense. But the more Church history we read, the more we confront the reality of what we see happening in Protestant churches (like the claims that Catholics are wrong for reciting prayers, despite the fact that Protestant churches not only recite the Lord's Prayer, but also typically have an altar call where people are led through a "Sinner's Prayer" to "get saved," etc.), the chaos and collapse of so many families, the blatant disregard for so much of Scripture that Protestants just can't reconcile with their particular denomination's beliefs and so they just ignore/discard it. The more my husband and I talk about it and put it out there, the more obvious the answers are.

And if you ever ask a Protestant, how, if they believe the Catholic Church was in error all those years, and that the Apostolic traditions are invalid, how the Protestant churches went from the New Testament housechurch pattern, to the set-up that exists today, which is often more like a corporation with tiered levels of authority, or conversely, is completely separate from all other churches, neither of which is true to New Testament teaching, they have no answer. If they truly believe that the Bible alone defines everything, then how do they reconcile those differences? If teaching stopped with the books in the New Testament, then how can it be correct to have what they have now? They have no answer.

I think two of the biggest issues were the "Romans Road" (i.e., Cliff Notes version of the Bible?) and the reality of what "salvation" was described as being in the Southern Baptist church, versus the reality of how that played out. For one, if all we really needed to understand salvation and Christianity was the handful of verses from Romans that most Protestant groups use to persuade people into joining their church, then why did God provide all the other books? Why is everything else necessary or important? You can't whittle away at it, taking away all the rest, pulling things out of context, and expect it to mean anything.

I think to be a Protestant, you have to be able to just say "it doesn't make sense but that's ok." I'm serious. There's so much you can't question -- or you're treated like an outcast. There's no consistency, no firm answers. It's all subjective. To be honest, I was talking about this earlier with another Catholic convert, and she pointed out that being Catholic isn't easy. In contrast, being Protestant is. Especially Southern Baptist. Once you've "prayed the prayer" and "gotten saved" (which are very important phrases), then you have your fire insurance. Anything you do, from then on, well, do your best but it's ok regardless. You can't get "unsaved" in that denomination. You're good to go. It's easy, in so many ways.

For years, I was taught that Catholics believed and taught things contradictory to Scripture. Purgatory, for instance. The respect they have for Mary, as another thing. In fact, there was a whole list of "violations." So, I started digging- not just to see if Catholics were right or wrong, but to see if the denomination I belonged to was also right or wrong. Because I grew up influenced by so many different "religions" (paternal grandfather, Southern Baptist; paternal grandmother, Methodist; maternal grandmother, Roman Catholic; maternal grandfather, Church of Christ. Went to a school taught by Reformed Presbyterians, non-denominational Evangelicals, and Southern Baptists. Went to Southern Baptist church. Nannied for a Jewish couple, worked a college job for a Sikh, had Muslim customers in Saudi Arabia and UAE, etc., and had a few Mormon friends. Worked in the inner city, where most worshipped at COGIC or Missionary Baptist denominations. You name it, I've heard it) -- I knew they could not all be correct. Someone has to be wrong. I don't want to be part of the ones that are wrong!

So here's the thing: I agree there are false teachers within the religious world. No doubt. That's obvious. The question is, who are they? So I started looking at that specifically -- across the board.

Presbyterians rely on Calvin, and to be honest, Scofield. I have a Scofield Bible on my nightstand, actually, and had used it for years. They set the standard and wrote the belief systems, pulling out the Scriptures they needed/liked to formulate what was "right" vs. "wrong." But who gave them that authority?

Most independent Baptist churches are pretty insistent on KJV. Why? I've even been in a church where I was carrying my Scofield NIV, and the church elders politely informed us that we couldn't read aloud in the Bible studies from the NIV, we had to use the KJV, and to help us "no longer be in error" then they had purchased us KJV's and left them in our pew. What gave them that authority?

None of the Protestant denominations agree foundationally on the majority of their religion. Even though they might say that "anyone who believes in the Trinity, in the fact that we are all sinners in need of a savior, and then confesses the name of Jesus Christ as Lord" is "saved," do they practice that? Is there unity between the churches? NO. Not at all. They are fundamentally different, and if you stay in any denomination for very long, you'll hear how/why they believe they have the "correct" interpretation of Scripture. The problem is, they seem to evolve with time, with this cultural relevancy concept. I cannot fathom how a church can believe that homosexuality is fine, acceptable to God, that gay marriage should be performed -- and yet, last year, the Presbyterian USA voted to allow it, it's up to the individual churches. Without a standard of interpretation and teaching to hold to -- that "tradition" that is mentioned in 2 Thess 3:6 -- this is what happens. Everyone comes up with his own thing, something that suits him. And the scary thing is, they all contradict.

Every Protestant denomination thinks they have it right. They can all cite Scripture to support their own doctrines, often pulling things out of context, or ignoring other Scripture that clearly adds to/supports/mitigates the tiny little bit they've decided to pull out and build a religion on -- like the importance of baptism, or the function of taking the Lord's Supper. Without the teaching from the apostles to round things out, to explain things, it's like looking at the framework of a house being built. You need the drywall, the shingles, the wiring, the plumbing, to make it a home. That's why we're not supposed to forsake gathering together. that's why we're supposed to not just go off on our own and read the Bible and think that's sufficient.

When I first posted on my Facebook wall over a year ago that I was frustrated beyond belief with the Protestants, I had no desire to become a Catholic. None. I was firmly convinced that the Pope might be the anti-Christ, as I had been taught from the pulpit, that they worshipped Mary, talked to dead people like witchcraft, etc etc etc. I had trouble reconciling that with the Catholics I knew, though, including my grandmother and the many Godly, faithful, peace-loving, kind, inclusive, "die to self and live for Christ" women I had met through Reece's Rainbow. I was looking for the "best" Protestant denomination to join. But over and over, people in various Protestant churches were commenting and PM'ing and emailing me to say they had the same struggles -- and over and over Catholics were saying "I think you're looking for us" and "I think you're Catholic and don't know it yet" haha.

I started studying not to become Catholic, but to disprove it, to find that fatal flaw that allowed me to cross them off my list as a viable option. But the more I dug, the more I learned and the more it made sense. I had to learn to separate what I had drilled in my head for years, decades really, by the teachers/preachers in my life, the code phrases that were programmed in -- the "compare everything to Scripture" (but not necessarily Scripture in context, but Scripture as interpreted and presented by the leadership of that denomination, hence the major debate over sprinkling vs dunking, predestination vs foreknowledge, etc). It all really does come down to the apostolic tradition, and the verses in the New Testament that refer to that being relevant. How we interpret anything is dependent on who is doing the interpreting and what criteria they use, what bias they have. The fact that the Catholic Church can trace the Popes all the way back, and the fact that Jesus renamed Peter and then in the same sentence said that on that rock He would build His Church, is huge. It was minimized in the Southern Baptist church, written off as a coincidence of naming -- but why would Jesus do that? Why would God want to confuse us? He's not the one that's the author of confusion! If He had wanted to rename Peter, He could have done that at any point, and not followed that with "and upon (the new name I just gave you that means Rock, i.e. foundation that is not sinking sand) I build My Church". When I realized that -- realized that it made more sense that Peter was named Rock because he would be the first Pope, just like Abraham was renamed to "Father of Multitude" because that was his role -- it started all making sense....

+++++++

Renee knows more about Catholicism as a Protestant than most Catholics know about their own faith! Again, to read the entire thread, which includes a lot of other voices, go here. It was a real barn burner, and I heard from Protestants who enjoyed it and learned a lot. Go give it a look. And remember the words of Jesus to the Father on the night before He died, after consecrating the Apostles to go forth and teach in His name:

“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." -- John 17: 20-23

Trinitarian unity of Christians is what God desires, and it's what Christ chose to pray for for in the precious hours before His agony. It cannot be minimized. God bless Renee and the countless others who have heeded Jesus' call to unity, so that the world may believe that He is Lord, sent by the Father. 

[avenir]

It has been said of Bible-Christians that they can only swim in the shallow waters of the theological debate. Take them to the deep end of the pool and they drown.

The wisdom of God can satisfy the greatest intellectual and the dumbest laborer. He speaks to the heart (which, per Pascal, "has its reasons which Reason knows nothing of).

[Steelfish]

Quotes you can cherry pick from anywhere. In the end Christ established ONE Church, the rest are all counterfeits.

[NYer]

I was just wondering why they appear in the heading as sometimes that is the only thing I read and although there may be a good reason for it, it boggles my mind which is not hard to do.

Aha! You, my friend, are one of the reasons why I don't post certain threads. The purpose of this forum is not to read a title which can be titillating but lacks substance. That is provided by the content which details actual facts. Several times I have come across comments which were obviously based on a title whereas the content was quite different and the poster's comments made no sense. Why bother to post comments based on a title? It's pointless.

In answer to your question, however, those symbols result when your computer does not recognize or interpret certain fonts. Failing a comparable equivalent, it places those symbols on your screen.

[ravenwolf]

In answer to your question, however, those symbols result when your computer does not recognize or interpret certain fonts.

---

If I knew what fonts were it might make sense, I don`t know.

But I read the title to see if I want to read the thread or not, if it don`t interest me there is not much point in me reading it. any way I appreciate the explanation.

[Jvette]

Again, what you offered is OUR sacrifice to the Lord and the blood of animals is not to be eaten for it is the blood which gives life to the animal and ingesting it is akin to taking the life of that animal within you.

Jesus, the Lamb of God, is God’s sacrifice FOR us and His blood is life giving. When we partake of the cup, as He told us to do we are taking into us His life, as He planned for us to do.

There is no comparison between Jesus and a goat or a sheep or a lamb and the laws God laid down for their sacrifice have nothing to do with the the perfect sacrifice, Jesus.

Merely throwing out a verse here or there does not do justice to what the Word of God reveals to us. It is not that it limits us, but it limits God.

There is no getting around what Jesus said and did. That He even said that we should eat His flesh and drink His blood was a sin when taken in the context of the verses you cite.

But, say it He did. God did not contradict Himself nor did He go against His own law as revealed to us. What He has done is replaced our imperfect sacrifice with HIMSELF, the perfect and eternal sacrifice poured out for our eternal life.

[fwdude]

There was a political “Protestantism” that was state-centered, so we’re not discussing the same thing here.

[Bellflower]

Corinthians 11:19: For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

The truth doesn’t come out by suppressing differences. In fact it comes out by them flourishing so that thereby that which God approves He confirms.

The problem is that as far as the RCC is from much truth as revealed in the Bible many other Churches are further even yet. When we finally get it together over the full truth that is revealed in God’s Holy Word then He will be able to confirm us as He has never done before. That will be great.

Right now, though, the RCC is in great fault as it can cause it’s people to miss out in salvation. Salvation comes only through the person of Jesus Christ. It cannot come by being a member of a church and keeping it’s practices. This is not made clear to Catholics. Many are still on the tread mill of works and do not have the peace of their salvation. They are hoping to get to heaven someday based on being good Catholics and doing enough works. This is very, very sad. At least many Evangelical Churches know how to lead their flock into salvation through Christ, His finished work alone.

[Steelfish]

No, salvation comes by following the Word of God. And God set up a single Church to insure a uniform interpretation and One truth given to Peter and his successors. This truth is acknowledged not only by a vast constellation of brilliant Catholic theologians from Augustine to Aquinas to Newman to Benedict XVI but also by a long list of distinguished Lutheran theologians who have converted to Catholicism. We can’t have every Tom, Dick, and Harry cracking open the pages of the Bible from Al Shaprton to Joel Osteen to every corner street foursquare Church Christian pastor offering us his/her definite interpretation of God’s Word. There cannot be multiple truths.

[TradicalRC]

Matthew 23:1-3 After this, Jesus addressed himself to the multitudes, and to his disciples; 2 The scribes and Pharisees, he said, have established themselves in the place from which Moses used to teach; 3 do what they tell you, then, continue to observe what they tell you, but do not imitate their actions, for they tell you one thing and do another.

Christ counseled obedience to authority and also maintained that all authority comes from God. Protestants have rebelled against God's Holy Church and rebellion does not come from God. It is true that salvation comes through Christ and yet Christ maintains that ALL will be judged according to their deeds. Many pay Him lip service and pay no heed to his teachings.

[Bellflower]

You need to crack open the Bible, seek God with all of your heart and read it for your self. Not just once, but over and over. Don't let anyone decide for you what God makes you responsible to find out for your self. Your soul depends on what you believe about Jesus Christ and His salvation. The subject is too important to leave in the hands of any other. You must find out for your self what is right and what isn't.

Just because someone claims to be the one (don't they all and have their ever so good seeming reasons for claiming so to their adherents) doesn't make them so. Just thinking or claiming that yours is the oldest and has the best authorities doesn't make it so either. With that reasoning the people who put Christ to death should have been followed and believed over Him. After all they were the ancient authority. They prove that often the established ancient authority is exactly the one that is desperately wickedly religious. They couldn't understand who Jesus was because they were blinded by their religion. So are many, if not most Catholics blinded by their “authoritive” ancient religion. They can't understand that religion cannot save anyone. Only the person of Jesus Christ can.

It is by grace and only by grace that anyone can be saved. To be saved means that you have been born again. It means that you have been translated from the kingdom of darkness into God's glorious kingdom of light. It means that you have taken a sip of living water and you will never thirst again. It means that your heart of stone has been changed into a heart of flesh. It means that your sins have been washed away by the blood that Jesus shed for you as their payment. It means that behold all things have become new. It means that you are a new creation in Christ Jesus. It means that you have eternal life. It means that Jesus will never leave nor forsake you.

All of this you possess. You are not earning it. It has been bought and paid for by the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ when he hung on the cross and died paying the penalty you owe for your sins.

You will never become saved unless God sees a sincere heart. You cannot fool Him into salvation thinking I will live like hell but go to heaven because of Jesus. God must see a sincere heart that wants to be and do what is right, one that knows it doesn't want to sin any longer. When you come to God with the faith of a child, willing to let Him be your Father through Jesus Christ then at the instant He will save you. He will wash away your sins and the Holy Spirit of God will take up residence in you and you become His temple. Then out of a new heart and overwhelming gratitude for what He has done for you you can then begin to live a productive, holy life because you are His, not to become His.

[Steelfish]

Nonsense. The Word of God is not open to interpretation by anyone and everyone. The Great Commission given to Peter and his apostles was to “Go forth and teach,...” If one can depend entirely on grace, there is no need to teach.

This was to teach ONE truth and for this purpose ONE Church was established. Before the Bible, there existed the Church with infallible teaching authority of the oral tradition an it exercised its infallible authority to assemble correctly the written canonical texts. These books in the bible did not fall from the skies and robotically self assemble themselves.

If each person follows his/he own idea of what is God’s Word we have a recipe for bedlam from the likes of Joel Osteen to the Moonies and Rev. Jeremiah Wright and everything else in between. The is why Protestantism today has fallen into such disrepair it has become a caricature depending on which congregation one belongs to. This is exactly what the Apostles from Peter and Paul tried to prevent.

[Melian]

“Stick with something you know.”

Ah, but they don’t know what they don’t know. All the important bits are cut out of their version. Don’t like it? Too hard? Disagree? Just snip, snip, snip!

It’s like clutching a piece of swiss cheese.

It may taste the same, but it’s not feeding as much.

[blackpacific]

Where is that church? That icon looks very familiar.

[CynicalBear]

It seems you have confused me with a Catholic. It’s the Catholics who added to scripture. The oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews not the Catholics. They didn’t include the books the Catholic Church added in an attempt to justify pagan beliefs and rituals.

[Bellflower]

When Jesus came He established a new order. Not one based on the law. Not one based on a place or building, and certainly not one based on a religious establishment of any kind. He based this new order on Spirit and truth. They that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth if they are to be the ones that Christ seeks.

Much of what Jesus taught was opposite of the old order which was passing away. He didn’t have this old order pass away to replace it with one of a kind.

His Kingdom is within us when we are His. It is Spirit and it is truth. This is the very thing that Christ preached and tried to get people to realize. He is The Kingdom. Each individual must come to Him that they might have life. The work of God is to believe.

Once one believes they act accordingly out of belief. Not out of loyalty to the Church (not even the real church, which is His body made of believers in Him) but out of faithfulness to Him, because they love Him, believe Him and above all else, trust Him. That is what faith is, not adherence to a particular Church or denomination. It is having a living faith in Jesus Christ that directs and shapes your life. There isn’t a dichotomy between faith and works, but works do not create faith, but rather true faith brings forth works. Those works are a privilege to partake in, but they do not and cannot save, for only Christ Himself, personally can save. Come to Him with a sincere heart and ask Him for salvation. He will once and for all time save you. Then you can begin to serve Him as a child of God, not because you hope somehow serving Him will cause you to become accepted by Him.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[TradicalRC]

certainly not one based on a religious establishment of any kind

16 Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.[2] 17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee. 18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.-Matthew 16:16-19

Sounds like he established a church with Peter as His Keeper of the Keys.

Much of what Jesus taught was opposite of the old order which was passing away. He didn’t have this old order pass away to replace it with one of a kind.

He was His Father's Son and said that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

There isn’t a dichotomy between faith and works, but works do not create faith, but rather true faith brings forth works. Those works are a privilege to partake in, but they do not and cannot save, for only Christ Himself, personally can save. Come to Him with a sincere heart and ask Him for salvation.

Much of what you say is well said but I do have one caveat and that is that Christ tells us that we WILL be judged according to our deeds.

[Bellflower]

Truth is. It is up to us to find it. A pope is not any better equipped to find it then any of us are. He does not hear the voice of God as those who spoke and wrote God's words did in The Bible. He doesn't necessarily know God any more than you or I, maybe less. Through out the ages one Pope says one thing and then another contradicts him. Many Catholics have been upset by this current Pope who embraces Muslims in the wrong way and has said other questionable things. It seems to me that Catholics out of one side of their mouth say the Pope is infallible and out of the other side of their mouth they say it is his office that is important but he makes mistakes. Which one is it?

Way back in the OT Abraham wasn't under the law as we aren't. He paid his tithe to Melchizedek who was most obviously the preincarnate Christ. There wasn't a Temple nor a Church. There was God, Abraham and Melchizedek. It is after the order of Melchizedek that Christ is our High Priest. Not after the order of the Aaronic Priesthood.

Jesus let the woman at the well know that worship would not be centered at a given place or really in anything earthly, but rather would be in Spirit and Truth, which has no locality nor denomination but is purely in the Spirit and the truth. He didn't say wait and the center for worship will be in Rome and will be in an organization called the Catholic Church with a Pope as it's head.

Think about the message to the seven Churches in the book of Revelation. Each Church was treated as a separate Church and government. Each Church would be accountable to God as a Church. There isn't any reference at all to a central Church organization that all or any of the seven were accountable to. Each Church was accountable to Christ it's head. Each Church had it's own independence. There wasn't mention of any central Church nor any mention of Mary as being paramount to their worship. There wasn't a Catholic Church. This is very obvious to those with eyes to see.