Posted on 03/13/2015 7:43:01 AM PDT by amessenger4god
Will there be a rapture? Is it pre-tribulational? I believe the answer is an emphatic 'yes' to both questions. Here are some key points:
1. For starters, I want to address the small, but growing minority of Christians who emphatically state that the rapture isn't even in the Bible. Now I believe it is one thing to hold to various views as to the timing of the rapture event, but no rapture at all? I believe that this belief is thoroughly nonsensical. The argument often takes shape the same way that Jehovah's Witnesses will say that the Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the "Trinity" since the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible... yet the doctrine of the Trinity is found all throughout the Bible, from Genesis 1:1-3 to Revelation. The word "rapture" is not in the Bible, end-of-story.
This argument doesn't even make sense--of course the English word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So too the Latin word that we derive "rapture" from is also not in the Bible. The New Testament was written in Greek! The Greek word for "rapture" is in the Bible. Even setting aside all other scriptures, parables, patterns, and parallels that may support the rapture, the rapture event is clearly and unequivocally taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. This passage doesn't necessarily answer the question as to the timing of the event, but yes, the rapture is going to happen. A trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ and those who are "alive and remain" will be "caught up" into the clouds. It plainly, unequivocally says believers will meet the Lord in the air.
2. Next, I want to talk about perhaps the most common argument against the pre-tribulational rapture. This argument is now known to be factually incorrect. So if you believe in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture, that's fine by me, but don't use this argument. The argument is that the pre-tribulational rapture theory was invented by a girl in 19th century Scotland named Margaret MacDonald. This is patently false. For starters, 18 years prior to MacDonald, a Catholic Jesuit priest espoused his belief in the pre-trib rapture in his book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. We now also have clear, extra-Biblical support for the pre-trib rapture as early as 373AD (Ephraem the Syrian who clearly taught the doctrine, even using exact language). See here: http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html and here: http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm
3. Thirdly, many Christians will often argue that the pre-tribulational rapture is not foreshadowed in the Bible and that the doctrine is just "easy-escapism". In essence they will say that God doesn't remove us from trials and tribulation, He just protects us in the midst of it.
I actually agree with their point about God protecting us in the midst of tribulation. However, this has nothing to do with the pre-tribulational rapture, which I believe is CLEARLY foreshadowed. The 70th week of Daniel (final 7 years of the age), are the years specifically set aside for God to pour out His OWN wrath. Not just the normal trials and tribulations every generation has faced because of the consequences of sin, but a tribulation God Himself sends on the world, as the Scripture says to test an unbelieving and unrepentant world (Revelation 3:10; see also Luke 21:36). That same passage says clearly says that God will keep believers from facing that coming tribulation. Elsewhere the Bible says "we are not appointed unto wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
So, yes, it is correct to say God doesn't always remove us from worldy tribulation, but He does ALWAYS remove us from His wrath if we trust in Him. This is foreshadowed:
There is no “clutching at the scriptures” when you take all of it and fit it together with no contradictions.
I was told by a man with a doctorate in theology that, excepting the core Christian teaching (e.g. grace), the stronger a person with a different perspective from yours argues that theirs is the correct and undeniable perspective, the less educated they are on the actual content of the bible.
It’s as if the more you know, the more hesitant you are to make blanket “this is how it is” statements about the teaching of the bible regarding anything but core issues. I’m noticing the more I read and study it is what is happening to me.
I used to be a strong pre-tribulationist and let people know that it was clearly what the bible taught - because it was what smarter people than me said it was. Then I studied it and, low and behold I ended up with questions that had no “reasonable” answers. And that began my path to the “post trib, pre-wrath” rapture position.
But even then, though I can support my opinion far more than I could when I was “pre-trib”, I know that I could be wrong. There is plenty of scripture that can be taken many ways and used to support several interpretations without exhaustive study. It’s why it takes a lifetime and still there is so much more to learn.
So I won’t tell you I’m right and you are wrong. But I will say that I have made a good faith effort studying this issue from multiple perspectives since 1981 and the one I embrace is the one I embrace. We’ll find out after we die (or are raptured). ;-)
Interesting how some can close their eyes to one and vilify the other isn't it? Obviously some think God is worse then that husband.
I am against new age occultism as much as you.
I believe there will be a rapture, we agree on that. Where we differ is whether the rapture and 2nd coming are one combined event at the last day, or whether they are two very separate events. I believe the former, apparently you believe the latter.
Post trib, pre-wrath? What's that. The wrath of God began with the opening of the first seal.
>>It’s why it takes a lifetime and still there is so much more to learn.<<
That's a fact and it's astonishing!
>>But I will say that I have made a good faith effort studying this issue from multiple perspectives since 1981<<
Well, I got a 10 year head start on you so maybe in ten years you will catch up! :-).
A little background. Back in the late seventies to the late eighties I knew Hal Lindsey personally. I argued with him on the 40 year generation thing. Their train of thought was that a generation was from the birth of the father to the birth of the son. But scripture says "this generation shall not pass" and that means that the father's generation will not pass. The fathers generation hasn't passed when the son is born which means 70-80 years instead of 40.
That is one of the parts I do not get. If the seats are limited (to 144K) then the chances of me getting one is pretty slim. There are 7 billion people on the earth. Being in that small, small percent is going to be a tight fit. I would guess that very few of the people who THINK they are saved, are.
That being said, what would be my motivation for acting in the way Jesus taught, when we are damned anyway.
Its not really an optimistic message.
Two things. The bible says, in many places, a generation is 70 years. I know it is an aproximation, but I know Israel became a nation in 1948 and “this generation shall not pass” means approximately 2018.
Now, nobody knows the day, but we are told to recognize the season.
Second thing: I came to Christ through reading “The 1980’s. Countdown to Armageddon”. However, I’ve caught Hal in a bold faced lie in one of his books. Specifically, it was in his book http://www.biblio.com/prophetical-walk-through-by-lindsey-hal/work/134749
It is the caption of a photo in the “upper room”. The caption is even less believeable to someone who is a photographer (me) than Hillary’s email scam is to anyone who had worked with government email (me again).
Still, he was the vessel that brought me to the lord.
Also, regarding pre-trib, my Sunday school teacher at the time I was thinking about mid-trib was a very well versed Christian and had written a white paper on the pre-trib position. I was very excited because I WANTED to believe it was the correct interpretation (who wouldn’t?). The logical fallacies in his arguments actually pushed me MORE to the mid-trib position.
The 144k are not the ones being raptured. Notice after they are sealed, a number too great to count is at the throne and described as those who have come out of the great tribulation.
This right after the 144k are very carefully counted and categorized. One thing that is VERY clear about the 144k is that they are not “the saved”. They are Jews sealed for a different purpose.
Well I've heard both but there is no "cousin" in the link you gave. Trying to get "cousin" out of adelphos is stretching beyond reason.
Daniel 9 is about the destruction of the Temple and ancient Israel as a nation in AD 70.
Well I’ve heard both but there is no “cousin” in the link you gave.
And I strongly agree with you that it is a stretch beyond reason.
When I first heard of this belief, here on FR, I realized that the reason they were making such a stretch was because some other belief they had depended on those not being His brothers. I’ve since seen a lot of that sort of thing from others as well as myself: Interpreting a scripture in a goofy way because if it means what the plain language means, some other belief I have has just been skewered or called into question.
Again, you make good points. God didn’t ignore the cries of the martyrs, ever but I don’t see how their martyrdom equates to this discussion. The rapture will be a one-time event. Matt 10:22 “He that endureth to the end...” was originally addressed to the apostles when they were sent to teach and preach in the name of the Lord Jesus. The verse is also telling us to remain in our faith until the day we die, not a warning that we will necessarily face threats to renounce our faith or be murdered. Sure, that does happen but as another poster said, that is the work of Satan, not by the wrath of God. I say we’re going. Things are falling into place every day. We ought to look skyward, as the scripture says. Preach the good news because more people than ever are receptive to the Spirit and it should give us all cause for joyful anticipation (as it was intended).
The mid trib position gets really messed up trying to rectify the last seven years due the nation of Israel from Daniel's prophesies. Another interesting consideration although not specifically in scripture is the ancient Jewish wedding custom. The bride and groom are sequestered in the bridal chamber for seven days before coming out for the wedding feast. That would coincide with the seven year time frame for the bride to be with Christ during that last seven years of God dealing with Israel.
Thank you for clarifying that.
I guess I will go back to behaving. It was fun for twenty minutes.
Oh good grief. Have you not studied Daniel's prophesies at all? Do a little study from scripture on the 42 months, 1260 days, 3 1/2 years, and the seven years.
You really need to compare the dimensions of the temple yet to be built and that one destroyed in 70AD.
You really need to compare the dimensions of the temple yet to be built and that one destroyed in 70AD.
Yep! Been there done that but when it kept causing me to run headlong into another passage that didn't fit I finally let go of what I had been taught and used scripture to interpret scripture instead of some guy somewhere who had a "degree".
Welcome to FR.
Getting off on a good foot, eh?
Interesting take on your part.
My take is that the believer who is daily living and walking closely with the Lord is the one who is being described in II Thes. (that I often quote - and even put to song).......thus he/she is indeed ready for His coming at any time, and will not be surprised - not because they know exactly when He is coming (this contradicts His own words) - but because they are always prepared for His coming. They are always “alert”.
There is a huge difference.
Although God alone knows, and I cannot judge, it would seem to me that many who emphasize the immediacy of His return don’t seem to be living like they really believe it - or they believe how they live doesn’t make any difference when he does come........
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