Salvation by Faith or Works?

If someone is hungering and thirsting for righteousness, God sends a witness, and makes a way, even in the desert:

Acts 8:26 “And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, WHICH IS DESERT”.

There you have Philip enjoying the moment, with the newborns in Samaria, and is told to take a 50 mile hike into DESERT. And what does he find, a hungry heart that believes the message and is baptized........in the desert.

8:36,37”...See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest...”. There was enough water for BOTH of them to go down into the water.

If we want to imagine every scenario for conversion, should we just encourage the last moment of life ones? That would really make for a world of chaos, by telling folks that you can wait until the last second, your last breath, to make a decision for Christ.

Crime would surely increase. Well, sin as a whole would increase, no doubt.

WAIT! That is what we have now!

There are multitudes that believe that “Jesus died for my sins”, and live the most ungodly lives. They’ve been told that all they have to do is believe, and they are saved. They aren’t taught repentance. They aren’t taught the Lord’s guide lines for rebirth.

Jesus Christ wants each one of us to be buried with him. He makes that VERY clear. It’s the main-stream ministers that (not unlike the Democrats) want to add numbers as easily as possible, even if it means rejecting parts of the Lord’s ordained plan (just as the Dems want to reject parts of the Constitution).

**Where in Acts 2:38 does it mention saving faith? It’s not implied anywhere.**

You are supposed to believe that obedience to Acts 2:38 is God’s will. That why that verse is there, right after some convicted souls asked, “What shall we do?”.

**This verse applies to saved Christians only, since it’s assumed they’ve already acquired that saving faith in what Romans 10:9-10, John 6:29, John 11:25.**

You are interpretting it to suit a presupposed position, instead of believing it like a little child.

**John 6:29; 11:25**

You are claiming to “believe on him”, but don’t seem to agree with his commissions. Acts 2:38 agrees with those commissions.

Here’s another one from the Lord, that he spoke when praying for his disciples: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through THEIR WORD”. John 17:20

You choose to reserve the right of scriptural sorting. You like certain verses in Romans. So I go to Romans, and show you context. Here’s one that I gave you, that you need to memorize as much as the others:

6:16 “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 17 Being THEN made FREE from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

You select a few verses of 1 Corinthians. So I go there and show you context.

You select one verse of Acts 16, and leave out the full conversion story. I go there, and show you context.

**You suggest that there is something that must be done on our part to be “saved” (baptism), steals the meaning of “grace”.**

Obedience to the Lord is not ‘stealing’.
You say faith through grace is without works. Then where do you draw the line? How many calories burned to make the confession of faith is allowable? Some people walk miles to hear a preacher. It’s okay to move leg muscles to go hear the preacher. It’s okay to move jaw muscles to make a confession of faith. BUT, it’s NOT okay to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, for that VERY REASON.

Many haven’t heard this rebirth message taught as the Word teaches it. You have. He is offering you remission of sins (grace) HIS way, not yours. (I fought this doctrine for quite some time, but to no avail. There is too much to refute. The Lord has given ample evidence, even types and shadows:

The creation: the earth ‘buried at sea’, rises (so to speak), and life comes forth.

Noah: the Flood buried a sinful world, new life arose from it.

Moses: condemned to death (remember, he didn’t even have the name ‘Moses’ until he was ‘drawn from the water’ to life.

The Red Sea: the passover lamb saved the first born, but the Red Sea saved them all;...”our fathers were under the cloud, and ALL pased through the sea; and were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” 1Cor. 10:1,2 (They were born of the water and of the Spirit, in type and shadow)

Jonah: He was buried at sea, but arose from the depths a new determined preacher.

**You are either saved from the second you believe in Christ during this dispensation or countless verses must be wrong.**

Meaning verses that mention ‘believe’, or ‘believeth’? You can’t scripturally believe in Jesus Christ, while picking and choosing his words that suit your plan of salvation.

Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; Luke 24:47; and John 20:23, all point to Acts 2:38.

Oh, but the point is it's not just one verse. The point is that when Paul writes "For God will render to every man according to his works," Paul is simply stating a point that every Jew (and Gentile with knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures) would recognize. For this is a point the OT repeatedly makes:

The OT also makes this point throughout:

The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. He has not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pities his children, so the LORD pities them that fear him. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. (Psalm 103:8-14)

No one has denied that God WILL reward us according to our works. But what NEEDS to be clear is that He does not give us what we deserve for our sins - that WOULD be eternal hell because only by the shedding of blood is there atonement for the soul. We will be given the righteousness of GOD in Christ when we receive His gift by faith. We cannot earn, work for, merit or deserve this gift, which is WHY it had to be a gift of grace.

So, NO, God will NOT render eternal life in accordance with our works. To hold to that is a rejection of His grace. He gives to us eternal life through faith and NOT by our works.

No one has denied that God WILL reward us according to our works.

But there has been flat-out denial by more than one person that the reward is "eternal life." Even though Paul states that point-blank in Rom. 2:6-7.

But what NEEDS to be clear is that He does not give us what we deserve for our sins - that WOULD be eternal hell because only by the shedding of blood is there atonement for the soul.

And on that point NO ONE is disagreeing. Absolutely correct! And I might add that works done apart from faith and grace are in no way salvific nor good in any sense from God's perpective.

We cannot earn, work for, merit or deserve this gift, which is WHY it had to be a gift of grace.

Correct. And the Catholic Church condemns the view that man by his own nature can earn a right relationship with God (Pelagianism) and also the view that man in his unregenerated state is able to make the first movement toward God in faith and from thereon to enjoy the benefits of grace (Semipelagianism).

So, NO, God will NOT render eternal life in accordance with our works.

Incorrect. Again:

6 For [God] will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life[.]

Let's break down the text. 1) Who will render (reward)? -- God. 2) What is the basis stated for the reward? -- "works"; 3) what is the stated reward given to those who persist in "well-doing" -- "eternal life."

So, yes, Scripture through the Holy Spirit says that God will reward eternal life in accordance with works. Matt. 25:31-46 provides a vivid illustration of this principal. Though I pointed that out in my prior post and you skipped right by it in your reply.

To hold to that is a rejection of His grace.

Not if one accepts and recognizes that the "works" which are rendered with eternal life are those done humbly in faith and through God's grace.

He gives to us eternal life through faith and NOT by our works.

It's more correct to say that we are saved by grace and both our faith and the works which are rendered with eternal life are the products of God's grace. Our works (properly understood as being under grace and not law) "perfect" our faith and also justify us. James 2:20-24.

But there has been flat-out denial by more than one person that the reward is "eternal life." Even though Paul states that point-blank in Rom. 2:6-7.

Wrong! No one has denied that at all. What HAS been denied is that eternal life is a reward for works. Why would you think Paul would contradict what he had just finished saying? Is he getting senile? Did the Holy Spirit make a mistake? Rather, it is the false gospel of works for salvation that is in error when one tries to make Scripture say God gives us eternal life based on our works when He so frequently says we are NOT saved by our works. But, like I already said, if you want to be accounted worthy of eternal life by the works you do, go ahead. The problem will be you will not be able to boast of that before God. Chances are also that that kind of belief will NOT result in the very thing being worked for.

>>So, NO, God will NOT render eternal life in accordance with our works.<<

Incorrect. Again:
6 For [God] will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life[.]
Let's break down the text. 1) Who will render (reward)? -- God. 2) What is the basis stated for the reward? -- "works"; 3) what is the stated reward given to those who persist in "well-doing" -- "eternal life." So, yes, Scripture through the Holy Spirit says that God will reward eternal life in accordance with works. Matt. 25:31-46 provides a vivid illustration of this principal. Though I pointed that out in my prior post and you skipped right by it in your reply.

Curious how you sure skip right by the verses that demonstrate the error of your conclusions. If we were to go by your interpretation of Romans 2:6-7, where does Paul mention faith in that passage? You claim he is saying God will reward eternal life to those who have works of "well-doing", but that passage alone says nothing of faith. You have to gratuitously add that in order to twist it to match your view of faith plus works for salvation.

Just what do you suppose Paul meant by those who "by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality"? Does not Hebrews 11:6 tell us that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him?

Not if one accepts and recognizes that the "works" which are rendered with eternal life are those done humbly in faith and through God's grace.

Consider the idea that, since God rewards those who seek Him diligently with the grace to have faith as well as the way of life that genuinely desires to please Him, eternal life is the reward, or the result, of soul-saving faith and that it is ALL from God, not something we do within ourselves. You HAVE to ignore many verses that repeatedly say our works do NOT merit eternal life - and works is both works of the law as well as works of righteousness. Once it sinks in that there is NOTHING of ourselves that can merit or earn or deserve heaven, we will comprehend the true and marvelous nature of the grace of God - it brings salvation to all those who believe.

Incorrect. You are letting works for salvation creep back into the equation and contradicting God's word that says our works are NOT what justifies us BEFORE God. We've already discussed that James is talking about an observable faith before others. He said Abraham was justified by faith before God, but his works were evidence before others that he had genuine faith and Abraham was justified BEFORE he acted on his faith. Did God need to see by his actions what was in Abraham's heart? No, He alone sees the heart (see Luke 15:16; I Samuel 16:7; Acts 1:24; I Kings 8:39; I Chron. 28:9; II Chron. 6:30). We can only see what is on the outward appearance, therefore, we see evidence of someone's faith by what they do. However, we probably all know of people who appeared to be people of faith because we saw their actions, but who later turned out to be wolves in sheep's clothing. THEY will be the "goats" Jesus proclaims He never knew at their judgment.

The whole gist of this argument as presented in the OP is that the kind of faith that saves us is the kind that is obvious by the changed life and motives of the believer. It comes out in a changed heart that comes to know the freedom from sin that is in Christ Jesus and the ability to walk by faith and joyfully do the works God has prepared for us to do. It is certainly NOT the kind that jumps for joy at the thought that one can keep on sinning to his heart's content and get a free pass to heaven when he's done. A genuine faith WILL be evident by how we live, BUT, how we live is not what merits our salvation. It is ALL by grace - from start to finish.

This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life. (Romans 1:17)

What HAS been denied is that eternal life is a reward for works.

Right. And that denial runs contrary to what Paul says explicitly in the verse I've been putting in front of you.

Why would you think Paul would contradict what he had just finished saying?

What had Paul said up to that point in Romans that you think is contradictory?

Rather, it is the false gospel of works for salvation that is in error when one tries to make Scripture say God gives us eternal life based on our works when He so frequently says we are NOT saved by our works.

And if you view these passages with the view that "works" has but a singular meaning in every case, you're going to have difficulties explaining the verses without either ignoring some or twisting others around (like Rom. 2:6-7, Matt. 25:31-46, James 2:21-24).

The problem will be you will not be able to boast of that before God.

Recognizing as I do the Scriptural point of view that the works that are rewarded with eternal life are those done humbly in faith through grace, boasting is precluded.

If we were to go by your interpretation of Romans 2:6-7, where does Paul mention faith in that passage? You claim he is saying God will reward eternal life to those who have works of "well-doing", but that passage alone says nothing of faith. You have to gratuitously add that in order to twist it to match your view of faith plus works for salvation.

At the very opening of his letter (1:5) Paul speaks clearly of the "obedience of faith." I have no need to gratuitously add anything nor understand verse 2:6-7 as somehow being opposed to faith or lacking it.

The Gill commentary you cited to me describes these as "good works." Though "glory and honor" would necessarily mean to God's glory and honor, not our own. And like I said, the "God will render in accordance with works" Paul copies from his Teacher (Matt. 16:27; Ps. 62:12) and Jesus illustrates that principle in Matt. 25:31-46, where the Sheep are rewarded with eternal life in accordance with their works of charity (feeding the hungry, etc.).

I keep pointing out these verses; you keep ignoring them; then you ask me the same question as to what Paul meant. (eyeroll).

contradicting God's word that says our works are NOT what justifies us BEFORE God.

How can I be contradicting God's Word when God's Word says explicitly that works (understood properly) do justify us before God?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [A rhetorical question for which the answer is "Yes."]

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:21-24

Pretty clear.

We've already discussed that James is talking about an observable faith before others. He said Abraham was justified by faith before God, but his works were evidence before others

Others? What others? Who was there when Abraham offered his son? It was just Abraham, God, Isaac and God's angel. There were no "others" there to witness this!!! No, only God saw this. And since James cites to the same verse as Paul (Gen. 15:6) we know that the Holy Spirit uses "justify" in the same sense of "credited with righteousness before God."

Faith is an inward disposition; "justified by faith" clearly means before God as only God sees the heart. But in the Protestant twist, one has to take a single sentence ("a man is justified by works and not by faith alone") and split it down the middle -- having "justified by works" mean "seen by other persons" and "justified . . by faith" as meaning "seen by God." That's just silly. A obvious forced reading.

You're offering up classic Protestant eisegesis, born of desperation to maintain "faith alone" in the face of Scripture that clearly refutes it.

Want to try one of the other Protestant textual manipulations to get around these verses? Have at it. I've seen them all. And they are all just as bad as this one you've trotted out.

The whole gist of this argument as presented in the OP is that the kind of faith that saves us is the kind that is obvious by the changed life and motives of the believer.

And on that I agree. And if one thereby says that to know if one indeed had a "true faith" one has to take account of the whole of a person's life, then I'd say I'm in agreement. Where I take issue is when it's claimed a person is "eternally saved" upon heeding the altar call. Maybe that person will exhibit a lifelong, true faith. Maybe he won't. Coming to faith in Jesus is a first and vital step; but it's not over then. The ultimate judgment will come when we stand before the Almighty. And at that time He says we will be judged according to our works. And that's how Scripture repeatedly states it; not that we will be judged according to whether we had a "saving faith." That may be implicit; but "works" is the explicitly stated criterion.

"Faith alone" isn't Scriptural.

James chapter 2, James wrote on the difference between a “professed” faith and a “possessed” faith.

If one believes he is saved or damned by his works , then one comforts oneself with the idea that “I am not as bad as my neighbor”

The Bible tells us “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” That is the inspired word of God . It does not say that some have fallen short and some are “close”

May I quote James to you?

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

So the thief is also a murder in Gods eyes.

No where does Jesus say or imply that one is saved by works.

The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation . It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world . It is not about becoming saved or being saved. It is about the fruit of your salvation.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This is an amplification of the teaching of Jesus that we know a tree by the fruit it bears. It is how we know the saved from the unsaved. It does not declare that the man has faith ...but that he SAYS he has faith.

This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one .Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.

The bible is clear that it is God that gives the faith and it is God that ordains the works of the saved

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

I keep pointing out these verses; you keep ignoring them; then you ask me the same question as to what Paul meant. (eyeroll).

If the first five or six times you repeated this argument wasn't convincing enough, being condescending won't make it more so.

How can it be "forced" when that is what the Scriptures repeatedly say? What is your interpretation of these passages:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:2,3)

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:4,5)

You're offering up classic Protestant eisegesis, born of desperation to maintain "faith alone" in the face of Scripture that clearly refutes it.

Yet Scripture clearly does NOT refute it. What you offer up is classic - though I don't think original - Roman Catholic eisegesis born of desperation to maintain salvation by works (with a little bit of faith mixed in for show) and to ensure the power hold Rome has over its people. As long as threats of "mortal sin" for disobeying whatever Rome declares is de fide are hanging over their heads, Roman Catholics stay because of fear of losing their salvation. Catholicism offers a bait and switch program of "come to us for the "true" faith and be saved" but "you'd better stay and do everything we tell you to or you will go to hell". I choose Jesus. I'll trust in HIS promises and not rest upon a little stone when I have the rock on which my faith is built.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offense: and whoever believes on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 9:30-33)

James chapter 2, James wrote on the difference between a “professed” faith and a “possessed” faith.

This is true. Though it's still true that the Holy Spirit through James says explicitly and clearly that one is justified (credited with righteousness before God) by works (properly understood) and not by faith alone. These points both go together. The acts James has in view are those of charity, acting in love toward out neighbor. So this is consonant with "God rendering eternal life in accordance with works" (Rom 2:6-7, Mat6. 16:27; 25:31-46).

If one believes he is saved or damned by his works , then one comforts oneself with the idea that “I am not as bad as my neighbor”

And if one accounts for the whole of Scriptural teaching, then one should know that's not an attitude condoned in the least.

The Bible tells us “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” That is the inspired word of God . It does not say that some have fallen short and some are “close”

This is true. We all stand in need of forgiveness and God's grace. Though this truth doesn't change the truth also stated that works done humbly in faith and grace do justify in the sense that faith justifies. Faith and woks are organically connected.

May I quote James to you?

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Right. And the "law" James has in view here is simply the commandment to "love thy neighbor." James's point is that a person can't claim to be fulfilling that when he shows partiality to whom he administers kindness. But when one acts humbly and impartially in obedience to God, those works justify.

No where does Jesus say or imply that one is saved by works.

To the contrary, Jesus makes clear there is a direct connection between what one does and the reward of eternal life (or reprobation, as the case may be):

"Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matt. 7:17

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." John 5:28-29.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matt. 25:31-46

These are but a sample. And I'm here not accounting that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One; many more statements on the connection between works and eternal life are found in other books.

The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation . It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world .

Though the example James gives of Abraham offering Isaac was an act seen only by God. When we act in accordance with our faith we are justified.

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

This is all about Abraham's faith and response in the eyes of God -- not some "others" out there somewhere. Abraham is said to be justified ("credited with righteousness") by his obedient act of offering Issac, just as earlier Abraham was credited with righteousness upon trusting God's promise of future descendants, just as even earlier Abraham was justified when he "by faith" heeded God's call and left his homeland (Heb. 11:8). Abraham's acts of faith justified him before God at various points. So, too, it is with all believers.

There is nothing in James 2 that hints about how Christians are seen by the heathen world. You're pulling this out of thin air.

It is not about becoming saved or being saved.

It's about justification, which necessarily ties it to salvation. And makes explicit reference to salvation: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

I don't know how you can say James isn't talking about salvation.

This is true. Though it is also true that in making these points, the Holy Spirit through James says explicitly and clearly that we are justified by our works, not just by our faith. These points both go together.

The bible is clear that it is God that gives the faith and it is God that ordains the works of the saved

Exactly so. And in rewarding those works done under grace with eternal life, God is merely crowning His own glory. Our merits are His merits. It's very paradoxical, but there is a lot in Scripture that is paradoxical (a God who is One, but Three; a Savior who is both fully God and fully man; life coming through death . . ).

How can it be "forced" when that is what the Scriptures repeatedly say? What is your interpretation of these passages

By "forced" I was referring explicitly to your (and other Protestant) explanations of James 2. Here you're trying to shift away from that by quickly switching to Paul. Nope. Doesn't work.

And two things about your take on James are clearly "forced." 1) saying that the example of Abraham is not about justification before God but rather how Abraham was seen before other men is forced (ridiculous, actually) given that there were no other men present when Abraham went up the mountain to offer Isaac!! 2) "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" is a single sentence with a singular use of "justified," which is then said, respectively, to be "by works" and "by faith." But under your "works is about how we're seen by others" read you have to split this verse down the middle and pretend that "justified by works" is talking about other men, and then a few words later pretend "justified by faith" is suddenly talking about God (as clearly only God, not men, sees one's inner disposition).

The more natural reading is that "Abraham was justified by his work" pertains to how he was seen by God (as there were no other men around) and, consequently, "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" is likewise talking about justification before God, as it's a continuation of the same thought expressed in the immediately prior 3 verses about Abraham.

What is your interpretation of these passages:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:2,3)

In Romans, Paul is contending with the issue of Jewish superiority, they who "boast in the law." (Rom. 2:17). They felt on account of being given the law, they held a special advantage in respect of God versus the Gentiles. Paul takes great pains to dismantle this notion. Paul points to Abraham -- the "father of the Jews" -- to argue in effect, 'if the law is the be-all of justification before God, how do you explain Abraham? He was not circumcised (the 'work of the law' par excellence) when God credited him with righteousness (Gen. 15:6) nor did Abraham live and "work" under the Mosaic law. Yet, Abraham found justification with God through faith before being circumcised and apart from the Mosaic Law. Thus, thus stands as example for both Jew and Gentile.

Paul isn't excluding Abraham's works in total; he's pointing out that Abraham didn't (and for the most part couldn't) do the "works of the law" that Jews had come to view with such exclusiveness.

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:4,5)

Paul has already noted (v. 3:24) that justification is by grace as a gift; one who views reward in a quid pro quo sense (as a worker is owed a wage) is getting it wrong. "To the one who does not work" ISN'T talking about one with an indolent faith (that is a "dead faith" (James 2:26). Rather, one who does not work is talking about a person who isn't obedient to the Law. "The ungodly" doesn't mean a reprobate, but someone profane from the perspective of the Law, i.e., a GENTILE. The irony Paul is employing here is that from the perspective of contemporary Jews with their obsessive focus on the law, Abraham was at the time of Gen. 15:6 uncircumcised and (gasp!) a Gentile. So if God can justify "gentile" Abraham, He can equally do so for present-day Gentiles, and thus the Jews need to get over their pre-occupation with the Law and boastfulness.

Is Paul excluding Abraham's "works" in the general sense of obedience to God's command? No. That is why James can say Abraham was "justified by his work" of offering Isaac and create no contradiction with Paul.

Your last paragraph, consisting of much rant and no analysis, is ignored.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matt. 25:31-46

Now how did I guess that would be the next scripture ??So lets look at it ok??

That does not say that one is saved by works does it?

This dissertation is an end times teaching.. THIS is the final judgement ...Notice that the saved and the unsaved had already been separated.. This was not a salvation decision, but one of REWARDS ..

Mat 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

One does not EARN an inheritance it is a GIFT ...and the sheep had already been given the gift..but now is the time of the 'rewards " for them The Sheep were not ever GOATS. the Goats never behaved like sheep

Mat 16:27"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Luke 14:14"For thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
(Rev 22:12)"And, behold, I come quickly;and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
1Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away."

The Goats are condemned , not because they did not work, but because they had never repented and believed

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

They were not sheep because they did the work that God had ordained for them, Gal. 2:16: "[T]hat we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified

Hear Jesus

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Please take time to REALLY read Mat..if you do you will find that the sheep did not even realize they were doing "good works"

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
The Sheep had done only what God had placed in their heart.. they were notseeking "reward "

That does not say that one is saved by works does it?

OK, fair enough. But "saved by works" was your terminology, not mine. I just copied over what you had written.

I've been citing to Paul who says that God "renders (rewards) eternal life in accordance with works." (Rom. 2:6-7) This is language that tracks what his Teacher, Jesus Christ says (Matt. 16:27), which then takes us to Matt. 25. This is an example of God rendering eternal life in accordance with works.

Better?

This dissertation is an end times teaching.. THIS is the final judgement ... It's what Catholics term the "General Judgment," as opposed to the "Particular Judgment" we individually face when we die. But why is it supposed that we are judged differently at these two times?

Notice that the saved and the unsaved had already been separated..

Well . . . not quite:

When the Son of man comes . . . he will sit on his glorious throne. . . and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . . .

"He will separate them" isn't exactly "they are already separated."

This was not a salvation decision, but one of REWARDS ..

What was the criterion of judgment? Answer: charitable works (or lack thereof). What was the "reward" given to the Sheep? Hint: "they will go . . . into eternal life."

I say the reward stated is "eternal life" (salvation). If not that, then what is the reward indicated?

One does not EARN an inheritance it is a GIFT

And I've never, EVER used the term "earn," so kindly dispense with that strawman argument.

But an inheritance is given to one's children, and how does one abide as a child of God?

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. . . . 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. . . . 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. John 15:1,2,5,6, 9-12

"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him[.]" Heb. 5:8-9

The Sheep are obedient to the commandment to love one another. As such, they are said to abide in God's love, remaining His children and receiving the inheritance.

The Goats are condemned , not because they did not work, but because they had never repented and believed

Where does the passage say anything about "because you did not repent?" or "because you did not believe?" Can you point me to the specific verse(s)? Again, like your take on James 2 where you talk about how Christians are seen by the heathen, you just make this up as you go.

The Goats called Him "Lord." They believed in who He is. They just weren't obedient to His commandment to love and were cast into the fire.

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