Posted on 02/20/2015 4:43:14 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!(Romans 10:11-15)
The Gospel is wonderfully simple, but that very simplicity has proven to be a stumbling block to Israel. They wanted a Righteousness that one could really work at, and take pride in, righteousness as an accomplishment, something only the notably “Holy” could achieve to the honor and praise of others.
But it pleased God to provide a righteousness that all of broken, ruined and sinful humanity could access. Neither Gentile or Jew could be saved from sin in any other way, than through faith in Jesus Christ, who freely gave himself to God as a willing sacrifice for our sins. It is in the richness of the grace and generosity of God, that man can be reconciled to Him, “Whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”.
Had Israel listened to the prophet Jeremiah they would have realized that by grace, all boasting is excluded, because salvation is by faith alone. The only true boast man could make , would be that he knows God, and that even that knowledge is a gift,
Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.(Jeremiah 9:23-24)
Here Paul anticipates an argument to justify Israel’s inability to receive the gospel,‘Why didn’t preachers come and tell Israel the gospel?’.
But countless preachers had been sent to Israel, bringing the message of justification by Faith, to the exclusion of works, and emphasizing the inadequacy of works righteousness.
How would Adam and Eve been saved? Moses explains in Genesis 3 that they believed in the original gospel promise, of the seed of the woman. How was Abraham justified? Moses tells us in Genesis “Abraham believed God and it was counted for Righteousness”!
Prophet after Prophet and preacher after preacher came unto Israel, culminating in John the Baptist and then the Son of God himself, preaching salvation by grace and not works. After Jesus rose from the dead and ascended He sent forth the Apostles with the same message. Israel cannot say she wasn’t told.
Faith comes by Hearing and hearing by the Word of God, but Israel refused to hear John, Jesus and the Lord’s Apostles for the most part. They were all apostles, Jesus was sent from Heaven, John was sent and Jesus’ disciples were anointed and sent, but rejected by Israel.The very word ‘apostle’ means “sent one’.
But just like Isaiah, who Paul quotes here , about the “Beautiful feet of those sent to preach good news”, <'i>,Israel hardened her heart to it.
Paul anticipates another argument on behalf of Israel, “ Has she had an opportunity to really hear and understand the gospel’?
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.(Romans 10:18-21)
In response He quotes the 19th Psalm which tells us that no one has an excuse because the Whole earth is the receptacle of the sound of the Word of God. Israel heard alright.
But Israel has proven to be stubborn, according to the Song of Moses, in which he predicted their whole history, from the very beginning to the end of time, warning Israel that Since she would provoke God to jealousy by idols, God would provoke her to jealousy by the gentile,’non-people’.
The Gentiles which didn’t concern themselves with Righteousness anywhere near as much as Israel, would be found of God, and flock to Jesus the Messiah. They weren’t looking for Him , but they found him and were enriched.
As for the Jews, for the time being, Isaiah complains in the name of God, that though he stretches pout his hands to them, they ignore him and even talk back to Him.
I believe in the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus - or rather the Gospel writers - had some odd ways of demonstrating the claims made for him.
In the case of the Gerasene swine for one, those pigs may well have belonged to some swineherd. Though he evidently thought nothing of stealing and killing them - in an awful way for the animals - ostensibly for the sake of delivering one (or two, depending on which account) from sin, but compounding it in himself by not paying for them. That some apologists would claim that he did, is somehow “conveniently” left out of the narrative.
In another, when Jesus and his disciples are challenged for not washing their hands prior to eating, he said something to the effect that it’s not what goes in to a man, but what comes out is what defiles.
Granted, nothing then was known of modern microbial theory, but Jesus, being God, should have known it. And although, in current Jewish practice, that’s still not the reason, I’d bet that Jesus and his disciples got at least quite a bit of unpleasant indigestion for not doing so.
All IMHO, of course.
And a disclaimer: The United States could NOT have been founded without Christianity. So I do honor it at least in that way.
Every archaeological and historical proof was written by unaware and superstitious men, especially cuneiform tablets of ancient history. Please give me references of which historians came to believe and why.
The importance to me is the timeline of what was written in Genesis. It doesn't work. But then, some suggest much of the Bible is metaphoric. Okay, but metaphors are subject to interpretation. Therein lies my ultimate quandry, not to mention. There is NO proof that any of Genesis actually occured.
Thank you for addressing the point of siblings having children. I didn't want to add a new debate. So, why did God later decide that incest was bad and caused proven deformaties? Or was that a human decision not to sleep with a close relative?
Plus I did say 100's of years in parentheses for Cain. Thank you for your courteous reply. I'm trying...
Amen
Some is metaphor. All can be understood in light of the rest of scripture however. Some believe in aliens. Some believe in magic. Let's take those "some" and give them the attention they deserve.
>>There is NO proof that any of Genesis actually occured.<<
Look at the world around you. Happen chance? Look at the genealogy and we can trace back to Adam. Look at archaeology and see much of the accounts of scripture true. Is there proof that Washington was the first President? How about the temple in Jerusalem having been destroyed? Is there proof that ancient Egyptians existed? How about How about the nation of Israel back in existence after 2000 years in the same land God gave them as He promised in the Old Testament? Ancient city of Babylon still in Iraq? Keep going back and history and archaeology say it did happen.
>>So, why did God later decide that incest was bad and caused proven deformaties?<<
Diversity? To spread people all over the earth as He did at the tower of Babel? He changed the life span after the flood also. God knows.
BTW There's nothing wrong with asking those questions if you are truly looking for truth. If, on the other hand, you are just trying to prove yourself right it's going to be disappointing for you.
Maybe I didn't write in this thread that I lean towards "intelligent design". Just to be clear, I don't believe in the "singularity" theory of poof there is a super-condensed ball of matter out of nothingness! The physicists and mathematicians can do all the equations they want...they will never know what created the big bang. Sheesh, they've change their theories often in just my lifetime.
Maybe the above may give you some insight to why I just can't believe in writings by men who thought the world to be flat and the Sun revolved around the Earth that they have the correct bead on what happened.
And no, I'm not trying to be right. How many times do I have to say, "I want to believe"? No one in my entire life of 65 years has yet to provide proof that I'm wrong in my scepticism of the OT. You folks always go back to the Bible which was written over time by fallible men. That's not proof - it's faith and good for you. That's not to say I don't believe in much of the New Testament as factual.
However, I still don't believe the creator behind this unfathomable universe would have such a petty human trait as to need to be worshipped and prayed to and has a list of sins. I actually find that insulting to an entity that is beyond our comprehension. Still, I admire the man, Jesus Christ, for his teachings which work for the betterment of humankind.
Let's open a new topic: At what point in the development of the human soul/mind/heart go to heaven after death? Yes, I know it's at some arbitrary childhood age. Who decides that very specific age? Is it within months, days, seconds of that year? And what is heaven? Pearly gates in a cloud of sunshine? A warm loving light from a dark tunnel that after-life experiences profess?
What if the conscience just merges with the entity of creation? What if our souls/minds are simply part of a bigger whole? Again, at what age do we qualify to be part of that bigger picture? We're no even self-aware until around what? 6-8 years old?
Thanks for the conversation. I find it stimulating and makes me want to believe even more.
"However, I still don't believe the creator behind this unfathomable universe would have such a petty human trait as to need to be worshipped and prayed to and has a list of sins."
Since God is God He doesn't 'need' anything.Those things you listed are not for His benefit but ours.
When a parent tells a child come to me because I'll help you,talk to me because no-one cares more for you than I and tells the child a list of things he should not do is that for the parent's benefit or the child's?
The "petty human trait" is for the child to think he has no need to be told anything (ie:young enough to know it all)and to see the parent as little more than a petulant tyrant seeking to shackle his freedom to do whatever he wants,which usually ends badly for the child.
Generally speaking,when the human race as a whole acts like that,it's going to end very badly.
Sooner or later the child is going to have to make a choice and he's going to have to humble himself to do it.When he dies,it's too late.
Probably best for me to bow out before I alienate and p*ss off more Christians.
Fables was brought about by man.
But was it just a fable that Israel would be restored after 400 or so years which Daniel foretold? not to mention Ezekiel who foretold the restoration before the time of Christ and then the destruction and again the restoration in 1948.
I knew nothing about the Bible at that time but I remember all of the hub bub among Christians.
Maybe a lot of fables because man has to learn, but a lot more to show God is not a fable.
Need to look a little deeper.
Proverbs 8:27 In His preparing the heavens I am there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
Isaiah 40:22 He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are as grasshoppers, He who is stretching out as a thin thing the heavens, And spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.
Another indication that they knew the earth was round can be found in Luke 17. It's talking about the Lord coming in the clouds and people will be caught up "in the twinkling of an eye" which will be a world wide event.
Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Notice there that it is happening there during the day. Now watch. In verse 34 he continues.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Notice that in a "twinkling of an eye" it is both day and night in the world. That can only happen with a round earth.
Another indication of what they believed can be found in Acts 1.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Notice the single "part" of the earth. The Greek makes it distinct. If they believed the earth to be flat there would have been 4 uttermost parts. With a globe there is only one uttermost part and that is directly on the other side.
I don't want to get to much longer here but in Job 26:7 we read "He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Now, that old flat earth theory is based on the "pillars of the earth" mentioned in scripture. But, we see it's just hanging out here. Science says that between the earth's core and the mantle (surface) is crystalline rock pillars holding the mantle. Thus the "pillars".
So the "theory" that they believed that the earth was flat isn't necessarily so and in all probability knew better. The intent of scripture was not meant to be a science book so such things aren't dealt with in detail.
Now, it is true that pagans and those who did not know God believed the earth to be flat. But from what I've just shown I believe that those who knew God knew the earth was a globe. It just wasn't what the focus of scripture is.
I come from a different perspective. Look at the world today. It's a mess with no real solid foundation for truth and right and wrong. God knew that would be the case and therefore knowing that only strict "rules" would need to be in place or the whole thing would go to hell in a hand basket real quick He set some rules and parameters of conduct. I had to do that with my kids. Many parents today don't and look at the mess. I think He was pretty wise to set the boundaries and the consequences for breaking them. He is also just so has to stand by His word.
>>At what point in the development of the human soul/mind/heart go to heaven after death?<<
It's not "at what point" as in age but of understanding. First of all the child is under the parent in that whatever is their destiny is the destiny of the child. A child of believers is saved. A child of unbelievers is not. Now, the age of reason is going to vary from child to child. A child who mentally matures early will be different then say a mentally challenged child.
>>What if the conscience just merges with the entity of creation?<<
That would take away the awesome individuality that we were created with. That would also negate the individual rewards promised. God deals with us as individuals not as a whole or just groups. He also promises us individual rewards.
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