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To: CynicalBear
They are not saved.

So, just to be clear: you believe that someone who has never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and who dies (even without having committed serious personal sin), is consigned to eternal hell?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical expression of incredulity or ridicule; I genuinely want to know, for the sake of discussion.
636 posted on 02/19/2015 5:51:12 AM PST by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan
>>So, just to be clear: you believe that someone who has never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and who dies (even without having committed serious personal sin), is consigned to eternal hell?<<

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

638 posted on 02/19/2015 6:44:17 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: paladinan; CynicalBear
So, just to be clear: you believe that someone who has never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and who dies (even without having committed serious personal sin), is consigned to eternal hell?

That's pretty clearly laid out in Scripture.

Of course, the counterpart provided by Catholicism is that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church, stated right here in the CCC.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

So Catholics being aghast at the thought that non-Catholics believe that those who never heard of Christ are damned are basically in the same position themselves, since their church teaches that salvation is through it only and nobody outside of it can be saved.

646 posted on 02/19/2015 8:44:24 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: paladinan; CynicalBear
So, just to be clear: you believe that someone who has never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and who dies (even without having committed serious personal sin), is consigned to eternal hell?

You are pressing for a yes or no commitment to your specific formulation.  But the formulation is flawed, and parts of it may be agreeable and others not so much.  As an attorney I have to advise clients on how to make sure they give the answer they really want to give, and often that means they must press through the details of the question, rather than give a simple yes or no answer.  

Just one example from the question as you have provided it.  You have embedded an assumption (via your expression "serious personal sin") that some sins are so serious they would cost a person their salvation, even if they were invincibly ignorant, whereas other sins are light enough to warrant different treatment in judgment.  We can't be 100% sure that is your meaning, but it is a reasonable first reading.  Speaking for myself, I believe Scripture teaches all sin is rebellion against God. Every ounce of it is both serious and personal.  The least contamination is sufficient to justify permanent separation from God.  Were there any least sin not accounted for under the blood of Jesus, that person will not inherit eternal life. Sin is death. We either believe Jesus on this or we don't.  I know it is unpleasant to contemplate, and I have been tempted many times to universalism.  But the words are what they are, and that is why it is perhaps better not to go beyond what is written in attempting to answer your question.  We cannot presume to know more about it than what is revealed in Scripture.  That is what we are responsible for.

Peace,

SR
656 posted on 02/19/2015 10:49:45 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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