5 questions and the 5 solas

The Cripplegate ^ | July 2, 2014 | Jesse Johnson

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

Discuss the message, not the messenger.

[CynicalBear]

Whoa there dude. You try to take Chapter 3 and apply it to Chapter 4? You had better read the beginning of Chapter 4 again. In Chapter 3 Paul was talking about the law. That would be the law of Moses. Now switch to chapter four and he's talking about Abraham and his obedience to God. Surely you wouldn't purport to tell us that Abraham was under the law of Moses would you? Abraham lived over 600 years before Moses. Abraham was credited with righteousness before he was circumcised and before the inauguration of the law. There is no way possible that Paul was talking about any legal law or obligation.

In verse 4 of Chapter 4 Paul is talking about what a man does to earn a wage. Those aren't works of the law. Those are physical things people do to earn a wage. Then in verse 5 he again uses that same analogy of things people do. Yes he talks about "works of the law" in other passages but in Chapter 4 he is not. If there was something we could do to attain righteousness the righteousness would be due for work done.

Paul told the Ephesians "not by works, so that no one can boast". Do you really think that men would only boast about following the law or do you think they would also boast about all the good deeds they did. Didn't Jesus say he would turn away all those who bragged they did all those things saying "I never knew you"? They weren't boasting about following any law.

[imardmd1]

The Cross and the resurrection have defeated Satan but he remains until God gets rid of him at last.

Yeah, but he does not have the power over me that he had before I became a child of The God. I can resist him, and put him to shame.

James 4:7 AV

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

One has attained a measure of spiritual maturity when he/she has overcome the Wicked One:

1 Jn 2:13d-f,14d-h AV

"I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. . . . I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

[CynicalBear]

>>we call this Petrine authority<<

No Petrine authority found in scripture.

[billys kid]

Seeing one in hell declares to the obstinate that they see the road in which they have desired to go. The Rosary is prayed for those who don’t have a clue that their final destination is HELL! We pray the Rosary, joining our tears with the Blesses Virgin Mary, that no soul be cast into hell.

[Steelfish]

Before Scripture, there was the Church.

[imardmd1]

. . . the Holy Catholic Church . . .

The word "catholic" was not in the original Roman Creed. This was added much later,

There was no "catholic" universal visible church until many years later, about the time of Augustine, who was seriously brain-challenged in trying to deal with the impurity of the visible church. Clearly, it's even worse and blatant today than it was then.

The idea of "catholic" was a device originating from the "patristcs" who brought the sense of it over from their training in Platonic philosophy. It is not a Biblical concept taught by the personal disciples of Jesus Christ.

"Catholicism" is a device created by religious leaders in tune with secular ones to create and solidify the reins of power over the local, independent, autonomous assemblies by using a state-approved unifying organization such that the religious power over the entire population of a realm could be placed at the disposal of the secular ruling powers, whose allegiance is ultimately to the god of this world, who is the prince of the power of the air.

[billys kid]

I’m aware of what our Lord said. However, I am more aware of what the Lady of the most Holy Rosary said to the children in Fatima. She said she wept for the poor souls who were falling into Hell because there was no one to pray for them.

Do you not pray for those who do not have a clue?

[billys kid]

Catholics were Christians long before Luther and Henry the Vlll.

[billys kid]

I honestly was not aware that I was making it personal. Thank you for your instructions.

[imardmd1]

You are, of course, right. But if we want the Jesus we preach, through the Holy Ghost that He sent, convict the undiscipled "good," "moral" person of sin, righteousness and judgment. The person needs to see his/her own true state, he/she ought to see the character of Christ blossoming in the people inviting them to a relationship with Him through new birth (although works indicating progressive sanctification should accompany that new person). Eh?

My most favorite, covers-it-all passage is Psalm 128:1

"Blessed is everyone that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways."

To fear the LORD is to dread to disappoint or disobey Him in any matter. Jesus' summary of The Law, that points out The Way, is acute in this application.

[boatbums]

Seriously, Sal...how many times does this have to be explained to you?

[boatbums]

Hey, Sal, maybe you should bookmark this post of Rnmomof7's. She once again explains that Luther had both ancient examples to follow in his translation of Romans 3:28 as well as the true sense of the passage that he was translating into German. Rather than repeating the same false accusations against Luther - and trying to smear ALL Protestants by it - why not learn the truth?

[Elsie]

Many people are not aware that Luther added the word “alone” to one of St. Paul’s writings (I can’t remember which one right now) so that it said “faith alone.”

If you are going to CLAIM such a LARGE change and even place it in QUOTES; then DOCUMENT your charge; lest the jury dismiss it as hearsay.

[Elsie]

Ooops!

I shoudda read ahead!

Psst...

it appears to be GONE now.

What’s the fuss?

Romans 3:28 King James Version (KJV)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:28 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.

[Elsie]

As St. Augustine said, "If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."

STA got around to writing LOTS of stuff; didn't he!

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As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,

 

 

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

• Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

• Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

• Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

• Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

• Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1

[Elsie]

There were other translations before Luther that had the word "alone" in the verse.

Such as????

[Elsie]

Such as????

Maybe I'll quit commenting as I'm SO late catching up!

#24 addresses my concern.

[Elsie]

Augustine???

Oh NOES!!!!

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Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.

[Elsie]

The very fact that this man in his disobedience and changing the scripture to suit his prideful beliefs, cries out to the world his acclamation of “I will not serve.”

Mary is dead and in a grave somewhere.