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To: Mrs. Don-o; terycarl; Syncro; verga; metmom; aMorePerfectUnion; GBA; MamaB; Elsie; CynicalBear; ...
From post 3795 for reference.

You are mistaken. We have always known, for instance, that such Old Testament men of faith as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Elijah are in heaven, and they were not, precisely, members of the Catholic Church. They were not even, precisely, Christians, although we can truly say they believed in the One Who was coming: they believed in anticipation.

All of those individuals you note here are noted as being in Heaven due to FAITH. Not anticipation.

I do agree those listed above are in Heaven. However, the quotes from the popes came well after this. The popes said no one outside of the catholic church can be saved....all had to be subject to the pope.... and then they changed all of that.

Here it is again...

Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam issued in 1302:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

You had a few quotes before this next part but this is the money quote of the thread so far....

This is not an avowing of Universalism on my part ---

I believe this to be an error --- but it is part of the Catholic belief that,

though we are bound by the Sacraments,

God is not bound by them.

WHOA.....STOP THE PRESSES!!!!

Are you making your own personal interpretation of beliefs without the aid of the church????

This can't be.

Catholics are not allowed to exercise independent thought per the church.

3,805 posted on 12/29/2014 6:55:56 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; don-o
I finally read the quote you gave us from Unam Sanctam. The correct understanding of this rests on the Church's constant teaching that no one can be held guilty for an offense of which, through no fault of their own, they were ignorant. As Jesus said, even as he was being tortured to death, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

According to Catholic doctrine, a mortal sin requires three elements:

Keep this in mind for what follows:

[Vatican II Lumen Gentium, para 14]

"He [Jesus Christ] Himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

And...

[Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 847.]

"This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." [Vatican II LG 16]

So it is TRUE what Pope Boniface VIII said in Unam Sanctam in 1302 (everyone must be a member of the Catholic Church), it is ALSO TRUE that being outside the Catholic Church cannot be imputed as sin to people who neither knew that this was God's will, nor intentionally disobeyed God in this matter. A mortal sin cannot exist without sufficient knowledge and free deliberate consent.

This applies to those whom the Church terms "invincibly ignorant," namely, those who are quite blamelessly ignorant, through no fault of their own. It does not apply to those who were ignorant through sloth, pride, obstinacy, malice, etc.

These aren't just my opinions, they are the doctrines of the Church. Do you have any questions? -- I'm sure there must be areas I haven't covered sufficiently.

5,141 posted on 01/05/2015 11:02:36 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to act justly, to love tenderly, to walk humbly with your God)
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