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To: boatbums
Would you like to explain how we cooperate with grace, "reflect the love of God" and free ourselves "from all attachments to sin and selfishness" so that we merit the beatific vision and it NOT be by our own efforts and works?

I have repeatedly stated that our sanctification is by the merit of Jesus Christ, not our own. Why do you claim that I believe that we merit the beatific vision by our own merit?

It seems like Catholicism likes to use lots of flowery, intellectual-sounding words and phrases to surround her doctrines when the simple and clear words of Scripture answer our deepest needs much better.

And the simple and clear words of Scripture do not support the Protestant claim of sola fides as I have pointed out. It is typical that those who claim sola scripture will not address those passages that disprove sola fides.

There IS no such thing as our holiness being a "legalistic fiction", it is a truth well laid out in Scripture that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ, and not our own, is the only reason why we are saved.

What I mean by "legalistic fiction" is the Protestant idea that the holiness given to us by God does not actually change our character which remains corrupt. No, the grace of God actually changes us. And it is grace, not a merit of our own. Nor are we saved by being sanctified, we are sanctified by being saved. Sanctification follows justification.

BTW, you do know that Paul was speaking about the works of the Law, that is the Mosaic Law, not the conflict between Catholics and Protestants about the nature of salvation, do you not?

157 posted on 11/02/2014 8:42:37 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
I have repeatedly stated that our sanctification is by the merit of Jesus Christ, not our own. Why do you claim that I believe that we merit the beatific vision by our own merit?

You're a Roman Catholic, right? Are you familiar with the Council of Trent? Here are some of the things that this council decided WAS the Roman Catholic definition of justification. From http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm:

    CHAPTER IX.

    Against the vain confidence of Heretics.

    But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ's sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

    CHAPTER X.

    On the increase of Justification received.

    Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, "Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity."

    CHAPTER XI.

    On keeping the Commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof.

    But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. And for this cause, the just themselves ought to feel themselves the more obligated to walk in the way of justice, in that, being already freed from sins, but made servants of God, they are able, living soberly, justly, and godly, to proceed onwards through Jesus Christ, by whom they have had access unto this grace.

    For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first forsaken by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glorified with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. For which cause the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying; Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away. So also the prince of the apostles, Peter; Labour the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing those things, you shall not sin at any time. From which it is plain, that those are opposed to the orthodox doctrine of religion, who assert that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work; or, which is yet more insupportable, that he merits eternal punishments; as also those who state, that the just sin in all their works, if, in those works, they, together with this aim principally that God may be gloried, have in view also the eternal reward, in order to excite their sloth, and to encourage themselves to run in the course: whereas it is written, I have inclined my heart to do all thy justifications for the reward: and, concerning Moses, the Apostle saith, that he looked unto the reward.

It is because of the words of Roman Catholic Freepers over the years on these threads that I know quite well the duplicity and weasel words used - though I'm not accusing you, personally - that reject the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith in Jesus Christ and the assurance of knowing we HAVE eternal life (i.e., I Jn. 5:13; Jn. 3:16-19). I have been called guilty of the "sin of presumption" because I state I know I am a child of God and will be in heaven when I die. I say this not because I have faith in my own righteousness or holiness, but in that of Jesus Christ by whose righteousness is imputed to me and I am justified before Almighty God - it is ALL grace.

What I mean by "legalistic fiction" is the Protestant idea that the holiness given to us by God does not actually change our character which remains corrupt. No, the grace of God actually changes us. And it is grace, not a merit of our own. Nor are we saved by being sanctified, we are sanctified by being saved. Sanctification follows justification.

Except that isn't what I believe nor is it anything I have ever seen as a "Protestant" idea. Of course we are changed intrinsically by the new birth - we put on Christ, we are given a new, spirit nature. It is this new nature which wars against the old, carnal nature which Paul lamented, and the closer we grow towards God, being sanctified by His grace, through the study of His word, fellowship with other believers, prayer, walking in His grace, etc., the less influence the old nature has on our lives. It is ONLY through Christ that we have the ability to overcome the temptations of sin and sliding back into our old ways being a slave to sin. Paul said in Romans 7:21-25:

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.

BTW, you do know that Paul was speaking about the works of the Law, that is the Mosaic Law, not the conflict between Catholics and Protestants about the nature of salvation, do you not?

Whether it is works of the Mosaic Law or our own works of righteousness, Paul clearly states that neither can save us. It is by grace through faith and not ourselves, lest any man should boast.

It's getting late, so I'll sign off for now. Have a good week.

171 posted on 11/02/2014 10:16:52 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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