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To: markomalley

I can’t say whether any Lutheran Eucharistic hosts have even been stolen, but the Lutheran assertion of the Real Presence of Christ in the elements sets it apart from the generic Protestant belief in the bread and (usually) grape juice being symbols rather than the Presence Himself. Any demon who showed up at a Lutheran service of the altar would certainly shudder in the Presence.

Which leads to an interesting question, for which I don’t think anyone can honestly say s/he has the answer. If Christ is present in the consecrated bread and wine, would that Presence depend upon the belief of the recipient? To put it another way, is the Presence of Christ to be found in the bread and grape juice of a Baptist or AG or Word of Faith communion, even if the recipient believes s/he is only taking physical food as a memorial of Christ’s sacrifice? The Presence of Christ is under the control of Christ. OTOH, the workings of Christ require our faith to be manifest: cf. the numerous times Jesus told people that it was their faith that healed them, or in Hebrews that without faith it is impossible to please God. (Personally, I lean towards the Presence being in any believer’s communion, but I am not so arrogant as to think I can know for certain.)


7 posted on 08/25/2014 4:45:22 AM PDT by chajin ("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
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To: chajin
Which leads to an interesting question, for which I don’t think anyone can honestly say s/he has the answer. If Christ is present in the consecrated bread and wine, would that Presence depend upon the belief of the recipient?

It's defined Catholic belief that the Presence does not depend on the faith of the recipient. The Eucharist's effect on the recipient does, however.

12 posted on 08/25/2014 4:52:24 AM PDT by Campion
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To: chajin
Your point is a good one, particularly if there are any Lutheran ministers who have maintained apostolic succession (while their apostolic succession is not recognized by the Church, there were a couple of specific Lutheran churches that claimed that they'd maintained apostolic succession. I believe that they have succumbed to the scourge of female "ordination" which would basically nullify any such claims)

If Christ is present in the consecrated bread and wine, would that Presence depend upon the belief of the recipient?

No it wouldn't. The validity of a sacrament depend upon valid form and matter as well as the intent of the minister to do as Christ intends for it...they do not depend upon the belief of the recipient.

Consider 1 Cor 11:

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

If the validity of the Sacrament depended upon the belief of the recipient, the above verses would be nonsensical, as it would not really be possible to eat or drink unworthily.

13 posted on 08/25/2014 4:56:25 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: chajin; markomalley; Campion; OpusatFR
Thank you, Chajin, for your enlightening comments. I value learning about your Lutheran faith.

In the Catholic Church, the general maxim is (to put it simply) that the Sacraments are binding on us, but they are not binding on Christ (since nothing can limit Him.)

I usually hear this applied to Baptism: it is binding on the believer (in fact, binding on the whole human race) to be baptized. If you realize that Baptism was instituted for your salvation, and that God has commanded it, then you are morally obliged to be baptized (in fact, morally obliged to be received into, and remain within, the Catholic Church!!)

However it is not binding on God. Therefore if He wishes, He can give the grace of baptism wheresoever and to whomsoever He wishes, in any manner He wishes.

Catholics better-educated than I am, help me out and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the same general maxim applies to the Eucharist. Objectively, if you have the correct minister of the sacrament (a validly ordained Catholic priest) and he does the correct actions ("do the red, read the black") to the correct stuff (wheaten bread and real grape wine) with the correct intention ("I intend what the Catholic Church intends") then and ALWAYS then, it is transubstantiated and becomes the real Body and Blood of Christ. No matter whether the person who receives Communion believes it or not.

Of course the spiritual condition of the recipient will determine whether you receive it unto salvation or unto condemnation: great faith, great love = great blessing. To receive unmindfully and unworthily, not in a state of grace, would bring condemnation. (But in any case, it's still the True Body and Blood, even if the Blessed Sacrament is in the hands of Anton LaVey.)

However God is not limited by this. So -- I think ---if a person who received bread and wine which was not validly consecrated, but desired Christ, this person could still receive His True Presence in some way surpassing our understanding. Just because He, the Lord, is entirely unconstrained and can do whatever He wills.

Amirite?

36 posted on 08/25/2014 7:36:51 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy)
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To: chajin
If Christ is present in the consecrated bread and wine, would that Presence depend upon the belief of the recipient?

The best way to answer that is with John 17: As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one

The "presence" does not depend upon the belief of the recipient. However their ability to perceive and/or accept it does. The same wall that we put up to hide our sins blocks us from receiving god's unconditional Love that is there for us all the time.

55 posted on 08/25/2014 11:59:28 AM PDT by tired&retired
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