Replies

ealgeone:

So when Scripture is interpreted to refer to Mary and intercession, it is taken out of context. Of course, that is your reply. The entire issue of icons and images taken up at 2nd Nicea was due to charges being made by “Islam”, which sound very similar to yours. The use of icons and images is not forbidden. You are mistaken, worshiping them as God [false God] is forbidden. The idols today are worship of Money, Politics, Economics, etc.

As for Romans 3:23. “all have sinned”, not sure I take it to mean what you mean. By definition, a child under the age of reason “can’t sin” personally, although they like all humanity, have original sin. In the context of the passage, Saint Paul was talking to certain Jewish groups who seemed to be elitist and setting themselves up over the Gentiles. This is more of using “all” to describe the condition of the entire human race and their need for redemption. Mary was saved by God’s Grace and filled with God’s Grace before Christ came into the world lived a Holy Life by God’s Grace.

Now I do agree with Saint Paul here, but in context, I do believe that Christ Promise to Saint Peter holds true that the Church of Rome has preserved 100% orthodox Apostolic Doctrine and Tradition. However, to take the word “all” without qualification would be illogical, Cleary the Church of ROme did not have “all knowledge” that would make it equivalent to “God” who is the only one with “all knowledge”. So, in this case, Saint Paul uses the same word “all” but one has to read it in the way it is being meant.

Another example of Saint Paul and “all” is the passage “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive” Now, as for physical death, there are exceptions to Saint Paul’s “All”. For example, Genesis 5:24 clearly indictes that Enoch walked with God and God Took him [Assumed him] thus it appears he did not die a physical death. Elijah also seems to have been “assumed into heaven by God” and did not die a physical death either for we read “As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind” [2 Kings 2:11]. So, here are 2 clear exceptions to Saint Paul’s “all in Adam die”. I can take it further and say that Saint Paul’s “all will be made alive in Christ” also needs qualification, unless you want to posit a doctrine of “universal salvation”????????????

Another use of “all” by Saint Paul. In Romans 11:26 he writes “and thus {all} Israel will be saved” Again, this has to be understood with qualification as clearly some will not be saved, unless again, you are positing some form of a doctrine of “universal salvation” for all Jews.

So, in every case, there are exceptions to the use of the word “all”. The immaculate conception does not contradict anything, for it only means that Mary was saved by God’s Grace in an extraordinary way, yet still saved by God’s Grace, and that Grace was given to her in a special way at the time she was conceived.

Actually, there are examples in scripture of “certain sins” separating one from God. Saint Paul in 1 Timothy 1:18-19 clearly states some have made shipwreck of their faith by rejecting their conscience. The Apostle John writes “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly” [1 John 5:16-17]. Saint Peter writes “above all, let your love for one another be intense because lover covers a multitude of sins” [1 Peter 4:8]. Saint James writes “My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins” [James 5:19-20]. Christ in Saint Matthew’s Gospel states “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come [Mt 12:31-32].

So we clearly have in the NT different types of Sin. In Mt 12:31-32, we see one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is one who refuses to repent and seek forgiveness. The parallel text in Mark 3:29 points to this where we read blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin.

In the case of 1 John 5:16-17, this is not the sin Christ is talking about in Mt 12:31-32 and Mark 3:29. Saint John is writing to a Church and Christian Community and thus in this context, the deadly sin refers to sins that lead to apostasy such as heretical movements who separated themselves from the Apostolic Church or sins that are so serious and continually committed that one lapses back into a state of spiritual death.

The Letters of Saints Peter and James give us another example, for clearly acts of Christian “love” cover a multitude of Sins [not all sins, and of course this fits quite nicely in the Catholic practice of Lent and doing penance]. In fact, Saint James says the Christian act of bringing back as sinner will save his soul and also cover a multitude of sins [why not all, maybe purgatory still????]. Still, individual Christians can be God’s instruments thru which he saves individuals and the act of cooperating with God will cover some sins.

In summary, your notion of Sin is not supported by Sacred Scripture nor is it supported by all of the orthodox Church Fathers who read the same scriptures and came to interpretations 100% different from you and the other members of the FR Protestant brigades here.

ealgeone: So when Scripture is interpreted to refer to Mary and intercession, it is taken out of context. Of course, that is your reply.<

No that is from a clear reading of the text. No where are we told it is ok to pray/worship/venerate Mary or the saints. I notice you offer no Biblical support for your position.

To pretend to keep itself out of idolatry the RCC has invented three levels of worship/veneration for God, Mary and the saints....totally against all Scripture.

when you're own your knees, you're worshipping someone.

The entire issue of icons and images taken up at 2nd Nicea was due to charges being made by “Islam”, which sound very similar to yours. The use of icons and images is not forbidden.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."

Lev 26:1 "'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

Deut 4:16 :so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,"

Romans 1:23 "and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."

I think that answers the 2nd Council of Nicea. Maybe if they'd read the Bible they would have come up with a better reply.

You are mistaken, worshiping them as God [false God] is forbidden.

It may be forbidden, but the RCC still does it.

The idols today are worship of Money, Politics, Economics, etc.

As for Romans 3:23. “all have sinned”, not sure I take it to mean what you mean.

Sin from the greek word...it means to miss the mark..especially God's mark of sinlessness.

By definition, a child under the age of reason “can’t sin” personally, although they like all humanity, have original sin.

You must not have children. By nature they are selfish and have to be instructed on how to behave.

In the context of the passage, Saint Paul was talking to certain Jewish groups who seemed to be elitist and setting themselves up over the Gentiles. This is more of using “all” to describe the condition of the entire human race and their need for redemption.

Mary was saved by God’s Grace and filled with God’s Grace before Christ came into the world lived a Holy Life by God’s Grace.

There isn't any Biblical support to show that Mary was somehow saved by God's grace before Christ came into the world. In Luke Mary admits she was a sinner and was in need of salvation. Her sin sacrifice after the birth of Christ confirms this.

Of all the false teachings of the RCC, this is the whopper of them all.

Let’s take more of a look at the word “all”. In Chapter 15 of Saint Paul’s Letter to the Romans, he writes “I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with {all} knowledge, and able to instruct one another”. Now I do agree with Saint Paul here, but in context, I do believe that Christ Promise to Saint Peter holds true that the Church of Rome has preserved 100% orthodox Apostolic Doctrine and Tradition.

Disagree: the RCC has not kept the promise. They have distorted it as being shown here.

However, to take the word “all” without qualification would be illogical, Cleary the Church of ROme did not have “all knowledge” that would make it equivalent to “God” who is the only one with “all knowledge”. So, in this case, Saint Paul uses the same word “all” but one has to read it in the way it is being meant.

You do understand there are two deaths...a physical death and a spiritual death. Which one would the context of the verses, and with this understanding, mean for these two? That they would not face a spiritual death due to their faith.

I can take it further and say that Saint Paul’s “all will be made alive in Christ” also needs qualification, unless you want to posit a doctrine of “universal salvation”????????????

For all of those who believe in Christ...yes, they will be made alive in Christ. Again, a clear simple understanding of the New Testament.

The immaculate conception does not contradict anything, for it only means that Mary was saved by God’s Grace in an extraordinary way, yet still saved by God’s Grace, and that Grace was given to her in a special way at the time she was conceived.

Again, the immaculate conception would contradict all of Paul's writings in Romans and the OT and NT understanding of sin and how one comes to have acceptance by God and that is through faith. Mary cannot have faith as a child in the womb. That is totally against any scripture and you cannot show in the Bible where this notion is supported and that is apostacy.

With all due respect, I'm not sure your understanding of sin is Biblical. It may jive with what the RCC teaches, but it is not what the Bible teaches.