Actually, the "focus of the topic at hand" was indeed your defense of Mormonism as a Christian religion. You are just changing the goal posts. Your statements on the Trinity was only part of your reasoning to support your primary claim. However, I predicted that you would avoid the topic of Mormonism since, if you defended it, you would be forced to either deny or don't mention what they teach and focus on bland moralism, explain how polytheism is scriptural or at least not a big deal for us monotheists, or at least launch an argument in favor of "doctrines not being a big deal," and thus coming out as a relativist. All these approaches are unattractive, so the only other alternative is to go on the offensive. But this also is in vain.
In another thread when I have more time I'd be happy to broaden the discussion.
I doubt that, but to prove me wrong, how about you start the thread and ping me to it?
Please cite the verse that you believe makes it so clear.
OK, but it will be multiple verses, plus the one I already showed.
Since we know the scripture "cannot be broken," as Christ puts it, meaning that it cannot be contradicted, we know that each verse must be believed.
1) Christianity is monotheistic, using the verse I already showed.
2) Christ is God:
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
This chapter also identifies the Word as Christ. Note that Christ is both with God and is God. He is thus distinct with God, being with Him, yet, at the same time, He is the same God.
3) The Holy Spirit is God: Act 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
4) The Father is God, and is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
"And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mar 1:10-11
Here the Father speaks in heaven, while the Holy Spirit hovers above the Son.
2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Here they are addressed separately.
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Here we are baptized in their name, showing their equality with one another in the divine institution of baptism.
So let's add it together 1 + 2 + 3 + 4: Since there is only one God, yet the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, then these three must be of one substance in the Godhead, or, in other words, the Trinity. Not conflating the persons as different "modes", like an actor going from role to role, nor dividing them, as the Mormons do, into three seperate gods.
Please show me the scripture which says that. In your first paragraph you strongly condemned anyone spreading a false gospel so, show me the scripture that places salvation subject to belief in the Trinity.
The scripture condemns polytheism:
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The scripture also commands belief in Jesus Christ, not just in His person, as if He is an empty person with no doctrine, but in His testimony as well, which includes His sayings on the Godhead and, really, all the teachings of the Apostles as well. If you disbelieve Christ's own plain word, then you have no truth in you.
Actually, the "focus of the topic at hand" was indeed your defense of Mormonism as a Christian religion. You are just changing the goal posts. Your statements on the Trinity was only part of your reasoning to support your primary claim.
Rather than divining things from my posts that I either did not write, or were misunderstood, why not take me at my word when I say the Trinity and the Trinity as a condition of salvation has been the focus of my posts?
However, I predicted that you would avoid the topic of Mormonism since, if you defended it, you would be forced to either deny or don't mention what they teach and focus on bland moralism, explain how polytheism is scriptural or at least not a big deal for us monotheists, or at least launch an argument in favor of "doctrines not being a big deal," and thus coming out as a relativist. All these approaches are unattractive, so the only other alternative is to go on the offensive. But this also is in vain.
You are coming across as a false prophet because the most I ever read about Mormonism, or at least the most I have read in a very long time was a single page scan posted in this thread by Elsie. I can’t defend something I know nothing about.
Since we know the scripture "cannot be broken," as Christ puts it, meaning that it cannot be contradicted, we know that each verse must be believed.
1) Christianity is monotheistic, using the verse I already showed.
I agree.
2) Christ is God:
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
This chapter also identifies the Word as Christ. Note that Christ is both with God and is God. He is thus distinct with God, being with Him, yet, at the same time, He is the same God.
I agree but, John 1:1-2 only establishes a Binitarian relationship between Christ (the Word) and God..
3) The Holy Spirit is God: Act 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
You are making an unsupported leap. Acts 5:3-4 describes the Holy Spirit in terms more like that of a personal being rather than impersonal force/presence used in other New Testament scriptures such as Act 2:17-18, Act 10:45, Rm 5:5. However, Acts 5:3-4 does not establish divinity of the Holy Spirit.
Between your point #2 and point #3, all that you have established is that Christ and God are separate yet the same diety (Binitarian).
Acts 5:3-4 does not establish the Holy Spirit as a divinity rather than a created being serving as God’s agent.
4) The Father is God, and is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
"And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mar 1:10-11 )
Here the Father speaks in heaven, while the Holy Spirit hovers above the Son.
This is further support for the Holy Spirit as a distinct being rather than impersonal force/presence. It does not establish divinity of the Holy Spirit.
2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Here they are addressed separately.
The triadic linkage is interesting but it does not establish the Holy Spirit as divine.
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Here we are baptized in their name, showing their equality with one another in the divine institution of baptism.
That is a powerful verse that places the Father, Son and Holy Spirit on the same level. However, scholars debate whether those are the exact words of Christ, or a paraphrase that was part of the original text reflecting baptismal practice of the church circa 80AD? Two reasons being: First, Matt 28:19 has no other scriptural parallel. Mark 16:15-18 bears closest resemblance but does not mention the threefold name. Secondly, If Christ commanded baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, why isn’t there a record of any Apostolic Fathers, or New Testament writer baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Instead, in the Acts of the Apostles baptism is in Christ’s name. Paul speaks of being baptized into Christ, or Christ Jesus but never the threefold name.
So let's add it together 1 + 2 + 3 + 4: Since there is only one God, yet the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, then these three must be of one substance in the Godhead, or, in other words, the Trinity. Not conflating the persons as different "modes", like an actor going from role to role, nor dividing them, as the Mormons do, into three seperate gods.
On #1 and #2, I fully agree. However, I already explained my disagreement with #3. In #4, your strongest verse for the divinity of the Holy Spirit is Matt 28:19 but as I just pointed out, controversy exists as to whether those were the exact words of Jesus or a paraphrase that reflected baptismal practices of the late 1st century church? If you can explain why Matt 28:19 is an exact quote of Jesus and why no other New Testament record exists of baptism in the threefold name, I’d really appreciate it.
The scripture condemns polytheism:
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
I agree that Ex 20:3 condemns polytheism but up until this point, you have only established the diety and co-equality of God and Jesus. (Binitarianism)
You state based on #3 that the Holy Spirit is a personal being as opposed to an impersonal presence/force. However, you have not established the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Where is your scripture clearly stating the Holy Spirit is God, that the Holy Spirit is an object of worship, to be prayed to?
Even if Matt 28:19 contains the exact words spoken by Jesus, a person could understand their relationship as being analogous to officers of a corporation. John 1:1-2 would establish that the Father and Son are one in the same while to satisfy Ex 20:3, the Holy Spirit might be the most powerful of the created beings but not divine and we still haven’t been able to move from Binitarianism to Trinitarianism.