[PieterCasparzen]

Oy vey, I was trying to clarify and simplify.

Too many things for me to comment on.

You do have access to the verses that contain the word predestinate, etc., right ?

If God predestinated you to salvation, how can we not agree what that means ?

What do you think that means - is it that God knows that you will choose salvation ? or is that God actively chose you, i.e., caused you to be saved ?

[paladinan]

Oy vey, I was trying to clarify and simplify.

:) Now, *that's* something that's come out of my mouth, more than once! I hear you.

You do have access to the verses that contain the word predestinate, etc., right ?

I take it you're using the KJV? My usual translations use a slightly different word... but in short: yes.

If God predestinated you to salvation, how can we not agree what that means ?

I do not say that God predestines me for salvation. I say it of the Blessed Virgin, for example, but not for me... at least, not in the (apparently) Calvinist way that you mean it (i.e. a denial of free will, with respect to salvation--and a claim that those who are damned were positively willed to be damned by God). I do say that, if (God willing) I am ultimately saved, God will have known that fact from all eternity... with no prejudice to my radical freedom of will by which I cooperated with God's grace to get me there.

What do you think that means - is it that God knows that you will choose salvation ? or is that God actively chose you, i.e., caused you to be saved ?

Your last phrase is ambiguous enough for me to hesitate to agree with the second option. In one sense, God can "choose" me, but I can still reject Him. And if I am saved, I will be saved purely through the grace of God, Who gave me even my free will by which I could choose to cooperate with His Grace and embrace salvation. But that is not at all the same as saying, "God forces me to go to Heaven (or to hell), by restricting my choices utterly and sapping my will of all meaningful freedom".