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To: blackpacific
Vatican II was not an infallible document. From your response it is clear that you do not have a single example of an infallible statement being false.

Neither is the CCC, meaning RCs need to examine all teaching to see if it is consistent with infallible teaching, which involves interpretation of both, and makes the need for an infallible complete list more needful.

And your response of rejecting V2 in the light of its contradiction of past infallible teaching essentially admits Rome has contradicted herself on a level in which most of the church is deceived thereby, as they look to V2 as interpreting past infallible teaching.

A sedevacantist site makes a good case for V2 being taught as binding, even while they criticize it.

Paul VI, in closing the Council stated that "the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching." Still later he stated that the Council "avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility" but that it conferred on its teachings "the value of the supreme ordinary Magisterium" (Speech of Jan 12, 1966), and that "it has as much authority and far greater importance than the Council of Nicea". Elsewhere he has called it "the greatest of Councils", and "even greater than the Council of Trent."[10] Perhaps the most clear cut statement is to be found in a letter to Archbishop Lefebvre demanding his submission to the post-Conciliar Church:

You have no right any more to bring up the distinction between the doctrinal and the pastoral that you use to support your acceptance of certain texts of Vatican Council II and your rejection of others. It is true that the matters decided in any Council do not all call for an assent of the same quality; only what the Council affirms in its 'definitions' as a truth of faith or as bound up with faith requires the assent of faith. Nevertheless, the rest also form a part of the SOLEMN MAGISTERIUM of the Church, to be trustingly accepted and sincerely put into practice by every Catholic." - http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html

And,

According to Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis & Vatican II in Lumen Gentium n.25, even non-infallible teachings are to receive the submission of mind and will of the faithful. While not requiring the assent of faith, they cannot be disputed nor rejected publicly, and the benefit of the doubt must be given to the one possessing the fullness of teaching authority. The heterodox concept of a dual magisteria, i.e., (the pope & bishops plus) the theologians, is not based on scriptural nor traditional grounds. - http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/TRIGINFL.HTM

Are you part of the SSPX or a sedevacantist, or just part of a traditional sect that excommunicates the majority of RCs, since they are liberal, although Rome treats them as members in life and in death?

337 posted on 06/05/2014 3:42:13 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Neither is the CCC

There's a reason it's called the "Cataclysm of the Catholic Church" by some theologians and clergy.

339 posted on 06/05/2014 3:58:02 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: daniel1212

Why do you make so many unfounded assumptions about my perspective? The documents of VCII are not infallible, so consider the collection of documents a bowl of oranges. Now look at the documents listed in Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma, consider them a basket of apples. Comparing apples to oranges to find a contradiction is a “fruitless” exercise.

VCII opened up the doors and windows of the Church to the prevailing winds of modernism and liberalism. This was supposed to be a good thing. It was to bring about a “springtime” in the Church. That was what we were told. However, by the fruits we know what VCII did to the Church. Just look into the goings on in any given parish, the results are not good. If you look closely at the proponents of the changes that took place after the Council, there is strong evidence that the Lodge was involved, especially in the recruitment of homosexual priests. That man-caused disaster has done much to bankrupt the Church.

Have you read any of St Francis De Sales yet? Do not deprive yourself. So often I encounter those who are following the traditions of men so close-mindedly that they cannot break free to examine the truth when it is presented.

The Holy Spirit will never endorse liberalism because at its murky root is the “non serviam” of Lucifer (there is a good book that explains this statement if you are interested). The Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church, stays with it in good times and in bad, much like a good marriage. It is uncanny that the schism of the Church of England was so intimately tied with the divorces of a narcissistic king. It has been nearly 500 years, but the Church of England is finally coming home. Catherine of Aragon is on the welcoming committee. And the Holy Spirit is patient.


340 posted on 06/05/2014 11:10:08 PM PDT by blackpacific
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