Posted on 05/21/2014 3:55:37 AM PDT by markomalley
I think the Jewish/Christian viewpoint is indeed likely different, though I am no scholar on contemporary Jewish views of the covenant and which laws are in effect.
Obviously Jews under the Mosaic Covenant were bound by moral, civil, and ceremonial laws, listed not only in the Ten Commandments, but beyond them as well in special revelations to Moses. Most practicing Jews today still recognize the moral law, but a lot of the civil laws and ceremonial laws seems to have been abandoned (offering animal sacrifices for example).
The Christians takes the ceremonial laws to have been fulfilled in Christ’s sacrifice, and the civil laws to have been rendered null and void upon the destruction of Ancient Israel at the hands of the Romans.
We are bound only by the moral law which tells us what sin is, and it has been made clear to us we are incapable of keeping this law, which is why we require the saving grace of Christ.
As to your first question, this does get technical with regards to the meaning of omnipresence, and how that works outside of space and time. Hell is understood to be outside space and time, but I would not view it as a place, more a state of being apart from God, that in hell, you have elected to be separate from the Creator and He will oblige you by transforming you into this state of separateness. Whether that means you are merely feeling an absence of His love or an absence of Him entirely, I cannot say.
You raise an interesting point which is beyond by theological expertise with regard to our obligation once we pass from this world into the next. There is a wealth of Christian scholarship on the topic of obligation in heaven, with the only view I have studied at any length being that there is no need for obligation in heaven, because we will lose a lot of our free will at that time. Having elected to be in the presence of God, we will simply be unable to do evil, or the situation we are placed into will have no option for evil. Without evil, there really is no use for obligations since there is no sin to avoid.
Now, I would consider those who are in hell to lose obligation altogether on my worldview. They have rejected God’s grace and fall upon his judgement, apart from him, separated for eternity. They lose all free will and only know suffering for their state becomes void of God’s love. Interesting to note that William Lane Craig in his commentary on hell proposes a cyclical theory of torment that does rely on obligations still being in effect. This theory goes that once in hell, a soul enters a perpetual cycle of being unable to fulfill obligations, hence why hell is eternal rather than temporary. I’m not sure I’m convinced on that score though.
So you do not believe the Torah? Abram believed the Lord and it was credited to him righteousness, this is found in Genesis. Also I am not sure where you get this notion that we believe Abraham is not in heaven?
While not a parable, it is elements like that which make me question the story’s literal intent. The idea he looked “up” is especially unusual.
Check out this verse.
In John 6:40 Christ declares that the resurrection will happen on the last day: “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
So, here we are talking about the Resurrection Bodies we receive, which will be as our natural bodies are but spiritual, imperishable, and awash in glory. However Jesus is said to raise those who ‘Behold the Son and believe in Him”. The fact that He excludes those who do not indicates to me they will not receive such bodies and remain disembodied entities, much like the demonic entities that are also condemned.
Yes, I believe.
RE: Abraham, my bad— I see/saw the quote with Abraham and Lazarus but now I see that the fellow in Hell was “looking up” at them. I mistakenly took it to mean they were in proximity...
Carry on with the Heaven/Hell
**In other words there is a seething indignation that must come from a fallen spirit who is hindered and can no longer live the lie of following its own will in order to find satisfaction. Such apparent satisfaction is a lie for it is rooted in will rejection of God and the values of God’s Kingdom. The fire is a limiting fire that truthfully attests to the fact that nothing outside God will satisfy, and that roaming about seeking satisfaction in anything other than God must now end. The fire burns and is unquenchable for only God can quench it. But the fallen souls and fallen angels have forever refused Him.**
Worth remembering and striving for an eternity of life with God in heaven.
The Last Four Things
The Hell There Is – A Homily for the 26th Sunday of the Year
Are most Catholics in America going to hell? [OPEN THREAD]
Pope: it's wrong to think our enemies must go to hell
Jesus, Who loves you, warned of Hell – A Catalogue of Jesus’ Warning texts
Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell
Where is Jesus After He Dies? A short Reflection on the Harrowing of Hell
"To Hell With It" - Dorothy Day (Kinda interesting article from the *bad* NCR)
The Hell of It. A Short Teaching on Hell
Dream of Saint John Bosco: to Hell and Back
Archbishop Chaput addresses the reality of Satan
Letter from Beyond
Catholic Word of the Day: GEHENNA (Hinnom, 10-17-11
To hell with Hell?
Gehenna
Hell Has to Be
The eternity of hell
Hell Is Not Empty and Pedophile Priests Will Go There" (Why Preaching on Hell is Salutary)
The Eternity of Hell
The Four Last Things: Hell
Catholic Caucus: HELL EXISTS AND WE MIGHT GO THERE!
John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Natural Calamities Divine Threats & Four Gates of Hell The four Principal Gates of Hell : I Hatred
Pope speaks with priests from his diocese about Heaven and Hell
Whatever Became of Hell? (HAS THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE BEEN QUENCHED )
One Man's Visit to Hell
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 11: Hell
A Question Of Hell (One Minister Questions Its Existence)
Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal
The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns
The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
IS THE NEW MASS ‘SOFT ON HELL’?
Heaven and hell seem to be forgotten
Which circle of Hell do You belong in?
"To Hell with Hell!": The Spiritual Dumbing Down of the Generations
Reflecting on Hell: Sermon for the First Sunday in Advent
The Reality of Satan and the Victory of Jesus and Mary (an Exorcist speaks out)
Beware the Serpent’s Promises
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death(Only One 1/2 of 1% Think They Are Hell-Bound)
Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell
Torment is not torture. It is to be separated from God’s love and goodness for an eternity. Today before one is saved from their sins they are already separated from God in relationship, but not in certain respects from his goodness or grace. Those who will be there will become acutely aware of their creatureness and fallen state. They will know their sin and its effect on themselves as they are self afflicted. They will understand their selfish ways and self idolatry and will gnash their teeth. They will understand there is a God and experience eternal judgment for their sins. Their whole consciousness will be engulfed in their sinfulness and they will not be able to get away from their nature. It will be like an itch and not being able to scratch it. It will be a mental and emotional torture that they will not be able to be removed. It will be darkness with no relief .
....”God knows that no one who goes to eternal separation and punishment would really change their mind, they are bent on their own way... Only those who are unretrieveable, unrepentant, unredeemable, those who have their one way decision, with an irreversible mind set will be there.
Yet hell is more than just eternal separation from God! Everyone who is a sinner, the devil and his angels are presently separated from God and they enjoy it... They are in this state now and not in hell..... While hell is separation this is only one aspect of the consequences of going there. ........Hell is not the absolute final punishment for those who refused to turn from ruling and ruining their own lives with their own sin nature....
In Rev.20 we find the small and great from all time standing before the throne resurrected in the bodies they committed their sins in only to face a greater terror. What they received prior in torment in their spirit will be even more..... Luke16 tells us about a chasm that was wide enough that neither one from either Abraham’s paradise or those from hell could cross. ....But then after Christ raised the chasm became even wider where they could not view each other. .....So it will be to those who are eternally separated. “
(wmww.letusreason.org/Doct12.ht
Doesn't sound much like a metaphor to me. The rich man was suffering physical agony.
Why should it not be literal? Jesus warned enough about it. Why would He warn about a metaphor?
A good homily by Msgr. Pope on “What does Jesus Mean by the Fire of Hell?” I’ll need to save this one.
And a thoughtful discussion afterwards.
I haven't yet read the article (I will) but to me the "Fire of Hell" refers to a preternatural analogue of fire in this physical world. It is not really a metaphor -- it is actual hellfire as it exists in that demonic space where the physical laws of this world are not applicable. Those souls who have had the favor or misfortune of visiting hell or purgatory in near death experiences describe it as hot, burning, consuming...well....fire. The difference seems to be that corporal tissue is continuously replenished, only to burn again.
Thanks for the ping. Msgr. Pope raises a good question: Do evil spirits burn in this fire, or does this fire burn in them?
Waiting, but not holding my breath.
I wasn’t actually posting this to you, just making a statement and grabbed a post to comment on. It wasn’t personal, it was just a quote. Sorry you took offense, it wasn’t meant that way.
but is it a dry heat?
bkmk
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