“Let’s go back to the Bishop, Presbyter and Deacon issue one last time without playing scripture tag.”
Let’s not. I don’t believe in dismissing scripture, nor do I think the Apostles wrote in a deceiving manner. They used bishop and presbyter interchangeably, so I do as well.
“So in the context of the terms Bishop, Presbyter and Deacon, a view held by and Early Church Father on those words is going to have more credence with me than both of your views, and my own for that matter as well.”
This is why we need to agree to disagree. I find the “church fathers” to be all over the board on most issues, and I find their fascination with philosophy instead of revelation deeply disturbing. They excommunicated each other often enough, and Jerome & Augustine never did agree on the status of the Apocrypha - and the Council of Trent punted as well.
I simply see nothing authoritative about the church fathers. I see no reason to heed them and ignore the clear writings of the Apostles.
Paul wrote, “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
So I will “thump” the Bible, and you will “thump” the church fathers, and we won’t agree because the church fathers couldn’t agree with themselves, let alone with the Apostles. I’d as soon go to the VFW Post and take a survey of the guys at the bar than seek consensus among the church fathers.
As an example, here is one of the canons of Nicea:
“18. precedence of bishops and presbyters before deacons in receiving the Eucharist (Holy Communion)”
These bishops and priests ought to have read:
“When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.”
They should have delighted in a chance to serve instead of arguing over who is the greatest. If they couldn’t get THAT right, why would I care about their other opinions?
I am well aware of the Washing of the Feet in John’s Gospel, it is read every Holy Thursday in the Catholic Liturgy. Again, it is a model of service to the Faithful that the Apostles are model. Christ humbles himself to lay down his life, the Apostles are to model his actions. As Christ the High priest offered himself as priest and victim, the Last Supper which is accounted for in the Synoptics and 1 Corinthians is now to be modeled by the Apostles. John puts this story at the last supper to suggest that the Apostles are to model Christ and not only his words, but his actions. The Last Supper was a Liturgical Rite with priestly connotations.
Jerome and Augustine did have differing opinions on the Deuterocanonicals, but in the end, Jerome submitted his opinion to the authority of the Church and those 7 books were translated into the Vulgate. So that is not an issue, Jerome did not elevate his personal opinion over the authority of a Church Council and the Bishop of Rome, of which his writings show a deep conviction of the role of the Bishop of Rome as having the role of primacy.
So you continue to say, you see no need to heed the Church Fathers, if an individual Father makes a theological statement that never was formally defined, then it is theological opinion. If it eventually is codified by a Church Council, then it has more weight. I clearly stated 1 Father, is just 1, if more than 1 have a similar view, that has more credence, if a Council defines their terminology, then that has more weight.
Again, you keep going back to citing what Paul wrote. Ok, but implicitly you are saying here is what Paul wrote and here is what “I take from the text.” I don’t share that approach and never will.
The text you cite again from John 13 is for the Apostles to not quarrel among themselves and to model Christ in their actions. There is ample commentary on this passage from the Church Fathers.
http://www.veritasbible.com/commentary/catena-aurea/John_13:12-20
Still, as Saint Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 12:28, the Apostles are First. Later in John’s Gospel, Christ prayed that all may be one. He called for the Apostles to be One, just has God is One. In Ephesians 4:11, Paul again writes Christ gave himself the Apostles, the prophets, the evangelist, the pastors, and teachers. Again the listing suggest some order of who is in charge. In 1 Timothy 5:17, let the Presbyters who rule be counted worthy of double honor [these Presbyters were likely also Bishops/Overseers]
So I agree, they should not argue with each other, all were Apostles and should stay united with Peter as the First among them, but his role was to strengthen the brethren [Luke 22:32] and feed Christ Lambs and Sheep [John 21:16-17]. These 2 directives, along with Christ statement to Saint Peter in Matthew 16, do indicate Peter had a special role to serve his fellow Apostles and keep the Apostolic community and faith unified.