The Church and Israel in the New Testament

>>>No, this was a discussion here and now, not deflecting or referencing some other discussion.<<<

The only reason I started that new thread was in response to one of your questions (#48). Did that slip by you? This was your question:

>>>Why is your application (without explanation BTW) that all of the Revelation up to 20:8 has been fulfilled, and was fulfilled by the end of AD 70 any more or less "adding words to the Book of Revelation" than the application I suggest (with supporting scripture and evidence BTW) of 2000-year fulfillment of Chapters 2-3?<<<

This was my response to your question, from my post #50.

I don't have to add anything to the scripture to arrive at that conclusion: it is derived directly from the words of Christ, the apostles, and some old testament prophecy. You will not find it in Scofield's Reference Notes. LOL!"

"I have started a new thread with the scripture that I used to derive that conclusion at:"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3156462/posts

I started the new thread at 2:50:47 PM. I responsed to your question at 2:52:53 PM. I was trying to give you as much information as I could. If you were expecting a sound byte answer to a serious theological question, you asked the wrong person.

Philip

You need to be able to support your assertions and conclusions with relevant evidence and facts in a coherent argument which should be clear and concise. Starting a new thread or referencing something somewhere else is not a valid argument. That's like walking off the stage in a middle of a debate, going into the next room recording something and then telling your opponent and the people listening that they need to go to the next room and listen to your recording. If it's not a diversionary, deflecting tactic, it's close.

No, this in-depth discussion is obviously not about "sound bytes". You need to be able to put together a clear and concise argument live and in color in the forum or thread of the debate. And this is much easier, of course, than live debate because here, you have time to develop your answers and arguments.

See ya.

>>>You need to be able to support your assertions and conclusions with relevant evidence and facts in a coherent argument which should be clear and concise. Starting a new thread or referencing something somewhere else is not a valid argument. <<<

Read it. You might learn something useful.

>>>That's like walking off the stage in a middle of a debate, going into the next room recording something and then telling your opponent and the people listening that they need to go to the next room and listen to your recording. If it's not a diversionary, deflecting tactic, it's close.<<<

I asked you before not to lecture.

>>>No, this in-depth discussion is obviously not about "sound bytes". You need to be able to put together a clear and concise argument live and in color in the forum or thread of the debate. And this is much easier, of course, than live debate because here, you have time to develop your answers and arguments.<<<

Please find some else to lecture.

Philip

Call it what you want Phillip. Walking off the stage (thread) and going into another room (another thread) in the middle of a discussion doesn't cut it nor do conclusory statements.

Best of luck.

>>>Call it what you want Phillip. Walking off the stage (thread) and going into another room (another thread) in the middle of a discussion doesn’t cut it nor do conclusory statements.<<<

I gave you clean access to much of the derivation of my doctrine. You rufused to read it. I believe it had something to do with some self-imposed rule. I still have not figured out your reasoning, other than sheer stubbornness.

BTW, now that you seem to be taking your ball and running home: let me come clean on this one point. Your notion about a 2000 year fulfillment of the simple instructions Jesus gave to the seven, first-century Churches, to keep them in line in the days of the great tribulation, is about the most unbiblical, nonsensical thing I have read since reading some of the wild-eyed imaginations of Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey that they put to print.

May I recommend you be a little more condescending to those you are debating? That is always a debate enhancer.

Philip

taking your ball and running home

I got tired talking to myself after you left the debate to start your own thread.

condescending

I would say you need to follow your own advice on that one.

>>>I got tired talking to myself after you left the debate to start your own thread.<<<

I thought I was doing you a favor by putting everything at the beginning of a thread so it would be readily available for reference. It is, after all, a very long explanation of my doctrine. I even demonstrated to you that I posted it about 2 minutes earlier than my response to you so you would know that I was not referencing an old thread; but rather something posted in response to your question.

I guess the old saying is true, “No good deed goes unpunished.”

Philip

Look, man, I have told you I am a postmillennialist.

I think you are the only one on these many threads where you've posted your doctrine that believes you. You teach as a preterist.

“Ideas by themselves do not lead anywhere and those who pursue the path of their own ideas end up in a labyrinth from where they can’t get out again! It’s for this reason that heresies have existed from the very beginning of the Church. Heresies are this: trying to understand with our minds and with only our personal light who Jesus is. A great English writer wrote that a heresy is an idea that’s gone crazy. That’s right! When they are ideas by themselves they become crazy… This is not the right path!”
This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

>>>I think you are the only one on these many threads where you’ve posted your doctrine that believes you. You teach as a preterist<<<

I thought you were through with me?

But since you responded, do you still NOT believe in the permanency of the “one blood” church on earth?

Philip

I thought you were through with me?

Since you bring it up, that was a different topic (you blamed the Jews for the Holocaust). I hope won't repeat that.

But since you responded, do you still NOT believe in the permanency of the “one blood” church on earth?

Do you mean the permanency of the holy catholic apostolic church which is in the Nicene Creed ? Or are you trying to argue there is no more Jew and Gentile, Male and Female, Bond and Free on this earth, whether in Messiah or not ? Are you still trying to argue the nation of Israel no longer exists ?

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen. the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried. On the third day he rose again. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Recopied and formatted

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

>>>Since you bring it up, that was a different topic (you blamed the Jews for the Holocaust). I hope won't repeat that.<<<

When did I do that? I assume you will provide a thread/post# so the readers will not think you are little more than hot air.

>>>Do you mean the permanency of the holy catholic apostolic church which is in the Nicene Creed?<<<

There is nothing holy about the catholic church.

>>>Or are you trying to argue there is no more Jew and Gentile, Male and Female, Bond and Free on this earth, whether in Messiah or not ? Are you still trying to argue the nation of Israel no longer exists?<<<

Thanks for asking. I believe both questions are true, from a biblical sense. It is true there is a secular nation called Israel, but it is not the biblical Israel. On the first point, the bible says, over and over again, that there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile; so I am obliged as a Christian to believe it. For more info of the Lord's elimination of the barrier between Jew and Gentile, see Acts 17:24-26, 20:21; Rom 3:9, 10:12-13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28-29; Eph 2:12-18; and Col 3:11.

The biblical Israel: the Great Whore of Babylon (Rev 17:1; 19:2,) was destroyed in AD 70, and the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant. See Hebrews 8 and 9 for details on the replacement of the old covenant with the new.

A small remnant of Israel--the righteous--were saved (called) from the biblical Israel and became the early Church (Joel 2:32; Zec 8: 6-8, 11-13; Rom 9:27-29, 11:24-29.) Many of the remnant, if not all, are permanent "pillars" of the Church, such as the apostles of the Lamb who serve as the foundations of the Church (Rev 21:14; Heb 12: 22-24.) You may have heard of some of them: Paul, Peter, James, and John. The remainder of Israel was rejected (Matt 4:8-10.)

From the "tone" of your questions, today and in the past, I tend to believe that you avoid the Words of God that contradict your ideology; but you should not. All of God's word is given for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16.)

Philip

When did I do that? I assume you will provide a thread/post# so the readers will not think you are little more than hot air.

We are not supposed to reference other threads; I'll ping you to it over in that thread so we can keep this thread on topic. There is nothing holy about the catholic church.

There is one holy catholic apostolic church, founded on the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. You believe it is not on this earth because your ideology is preterism. You teach the rapture and resurrection already occurred in 70AD, even though there is neither Scripture nor Church tradition that confirms it.

On the first point, the bible says, over and over again, that there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile; so I am obliged as a Christian to believe it.

So you believe there is no difference in this current world between Jew and Gentile, man and woman, bond and free. I find that position untenable. Even the Apostle Paul taught otherwise: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety..

All of God's word is given for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16.)

Yes, we were warned in 1 Tim and 2 Tim. This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

>>>I think you are the only one on these many threads where you've posted your doctrine that believes you. You teach as a preterist.<<<

I certainly hope they do not believe you! But thanks for bringing it up. As I have stated over and over again, I am a postmillennialist. This is the definition:

Postmillennialism (from Wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmillennialism

"In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper. The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism."

"Postmillennialism holds that Jesus Christ establishes his kingdom on earth through his preaching and redemptive work in the first century and that he equips his church with the gospel, empowers her by the Spirit, and charges her with the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) to disciple all nations. Postmillennialism expects that eventually the vast majority of men living will be saved. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith, righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the affairs of men and of nations."

I believe all of that, except I believe in an additional resurrection: a first resurrection that preceded the "millenniumm" (that "kicked it off," if you will,) exactly like it is written in Revelation chapter 20. More on postmillennialism from Wikipedia …

"After an extensive era of such conditions Jesus Christ will return visibly, bodily, and gloriously, to end history with the general resurrection and the final judgment after which the eternal order follows."

I believe he will return, and every knee will bow before him; but I do not believe history will end; rather I believe the Church and this earth will last forever, as written:

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph 3:21 KJV)

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." (Ecc 1:4 KJV)

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:17 KJV)

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:2 KJV)

So, with slight shades of difference, I am a Postmillennialist.

Again, thanks for bringing it up.

Philip

>>>There is one holy catholic apostolic church, founded on the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone.<<<

That is a gross exaggeration, and misinterpretation of the scriptures. There is, and never will be anything holy about the catholic church. You are welcome to try to prove me wrong (with scripture.)

>>>You believe it is not on this earth because your ideology is preterism.<<<

You tend to get your facts wrong, in most every case. It is almost as if you are intentionally casting aspersions. I recently quoted Wikipedia on this thread which shows I am a postmillennialist. So you are also wrong on that point.

Worse, you are claiming that a self-serving organization, founded contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, is "the church?" Did Jesus not say, "Call no many father on this earth?" Did Jesus not reject the wearing of exaggerated clown suits, like rabbis and the pope wear? Did any of the apostles cling to elaborate dress, and desire magnificent cathedrals (built on the backs of poor peasants?) You know very well that the catholic church, on a good day, is an apostasy.

>>>You teach the rapture and resurrection already occurred in 70AD, even though there is neither Scripture nor Church tradition that confirms it.<<<

I will agree that there is little or no scripture to support the rituals of the catholic "church," nor the modern-day secular state called Israel. However, I would welcome it if you could prove me wrong with scripture.

There is, however, plenty of scripture to support my understanding of the first resurrection. Recently (two days ago, in fact) I posted a thread on the first resurrection of AD 70 titled, "The 144,000 on mount Sion." The URL is http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3156462/posts.

Philip

You teach the rapture and resurrection already occurred in 70AD, even though there is neither Scripture nor Church tradition that confirms it.

I'm not a big believer in that Rapture stuff, but I do believe the Great Tribulation occurred circa 66 AD. Jesus spoke that in their lifetimes, there would be those there who would witness it.

>>>I'm not a big believer in that Rapture stuff, but I do believe the Great Tribulation occurred circa 66 AD. Jesus spoke that in their lifetimes, there would be those there who would witness it.<<<

You are exactly right! The great tribulation, that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, occurred from about AD 66 to 70--for approximately 42 months--during the civil war within Jerusalem and the later Roman Army siege of the city under Titus. The only way to believe otherwise, and bump the tribulation far into the future, is to spiritualize the time context in Matthew 24:34 to make "this generation" mean "that generation."

Philip

>>>I'm not a big believer in that Rapture stuff<<<

Neither am I, in the future tense. I believe that around AD 70 Christ sent his angels to gather his elect, and that was the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. The second, general resurrection will occur much later, in our future, after Satan is defeated. That is also mentioned in Revelation 20.

This is Christ on gathering his elect: the second passage is from the Olivet Discourse:

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:7-8 KJV)

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:26-27 KJV)

Note that he gathered his elect from both heaven and earth. Many were already dead. After their resurrection, they began their permanent service to Christ in heaven:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years … Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4,6 KJV)

And they do serve Christ forever, as explained in Daniel 7:18, below. They were the elect--the holy ones--those who received the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost, or shortly thereafter. Those mentioned above who sit on thrones as judges (highlighted in red in verse 4) include the disciples:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)

Those of the first resurrection were the true Saints of the Most High, mentioned in Daniel, who reign for ever with Christ:

"But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." (Dan 7:18 KJV)

Daniel also wrote of the first resurrection. Note in this passage that the resurrection is a partial resurrection ("many" instead of "all,") and includes only Daniel's people, the children of Israel. The great tribulation is also mentioned:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

So much for a secret rapture of only Christians. As it turned out, it was a "secret rapture" (if you will) of the children of Israel at the end of the Jewish age and old covenant

Anyway, that was the early Church that was resurrected to everlasting life; and they serve as foundations of our faith in the holy temple and holy city on mount Sion in heaven. Praise God for them!

Philip

>>>So you believe there is no difference in this current world between Jew and Gentile, man and woman, bond and free. I find that position untenable. Even the Apostle Paul taught otherwise: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.<<<

Your pretense that Paul's statement contradicts all his other statements is puzzling. Of course they were given the oracles of God: Moses is an example, as is Paul, who, like Moses, was called to serve God as a receptor and minister of His oracles via the Holy Spirit. In fact, I am on record as stating that all those of the first Resurrection of AD 70 were children of Israel; and they, and they alone, serve and reign with Christ in his holy city and temple, for ever.

But, the rest of us, Jews and Gentiles alike, must call on the name of the Lord to be saved. Then, and only then will we be destined to become fellowcitizens with the Saints.

>>>Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.<<<

That is another puzzling red-herring? What does administration have to do with salvation? Everyone (that is, except for those of the first resurrection: the elect) must call on the name of the Lord to be saved, whether Jew or Greek, or man or woman, or etc..

BTW, I particularly liked the verse about wearing "modest apparel." Maybe the pope will read 1 Timothy 2:9 and quit wearing that silly clown suit.

>>>Yes, we were warned in 1 Tim and 2 Tim. This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.<<<

Amen to that.

>>>But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.<<<

Amen to that.

>>>And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.<<<

Amen to that. No one will be able to convince me that the general resurrection--our destiny--is past. However, don't you think it odd that Paul was concerned about the timing of the resurrection 2,000 years before it was to occur? LOL!

As a matter of fact, Paul was very concerned, but only because the first resurrection was imminent: designated for his generation; and he and his fellow Saints were eagerly anticipating it as a reward for their services. Hymenaeus and Philetus were like modern day false prophets, such as Hal Lindsey, Harold Camping and Edgar C. Whisenant, who in a similar, but opposite manner, made false predictions about the timing of the resurrection, thus overthrowing the faith of some.

This is Paul on the imminence of the resurrection:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Th 2:1-2 KJV)

Does that sound like 2,000 years away, to you? How about this one:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:13-18 KJV)

It certainly appears that Paul was expecting to be alive when the first resurrection occurred.

Philip

So now you agree with Paul that there is a difference between Jew and Gentile; the Jews are beloved for the fathers’ sake. Our Father is preserving the nation of Israel, even in unbelief, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in (which has not yet happened), when all Israel will be saved. Hallelujah and Amen.