This is the Papist method of biblical interpretation. I don't care about the Arminian view and how they'd read it, or the Papist view, or the Mormon view of these verses. I just want a plain reading of the text. I say that List is the List of Those Who Believe.
We also say this, as previously explained, as all those given by the Father to the Son, do believe as a consequence. What we are debating, however, is the cause of belief. Please re-read my previous post and properly respond to me. I honestly hate repeating myself all the time.
The verses in John 6 can support either interpretation.
This is, essentially, an admission that you consider John 6 useless for interpretation. It, of itself, has no meaning, and can be twisted either way. But can you prove this? You have not done so.
Neither does it say anywhere in John 6 that those are people who won God’s Life Lottery,
Ignoring your mockery, you know as well as I do that it most certainly does, and I have repeatedly asked you to address my points. I have made direct analysis of the text and have used them against you. Will you respond? Just pretending I've said nothing and shown nothing cannot help you escape this. You must be able to demonstrate an alternative view, or else we must conclude that you have none.
The verses in John 6 can be interpreted either way.
The second time you've said this. But I can't help but to notice the contradiction inherent in this admission. You stated earlier that my view is not in these verses, but then you confess my view is in these verses, because, logically, they can be "interpreted" in that way. That means the nouns and verbs the subjects and the predicates can lead to my reading. But can you actually demonstrate how your view can be interpreted out of these verses in any way?
Part of the fallacy of Calvinism is the belief that God cannot, in His will, give humans ANY freedom. However, there is nothing to support that view. I can give my kids freedom of choice, or not. When riding a horse, I can say “Go left”, or I can let the horse choose.
This doesn't actually respond to the text, again, regarding the God who "works all things according to the counsel of His will." But, to address these totally unrelated arguments, my first response is that you are not an omnipotent, omniscient God.
There is a filthy atheist on facebook who has this posted on his profile page. I copied it down since, from the Augustinian/Paulian/Christian view, it is easy to answer, though harder if you do it from the Arminian view. It has something to do with your response though:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus
The scripture clearly teaches that God does indeed "work all things according to the counsel of His will." This includes the acts of evil spirits, evil men, kings, rulers, the cast of the lot, etc., a few examples:
Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; (Job 14:4-5)
1Sa 16:14-16 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. And Saul’s servants said to him, “Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.”
1Ki 22:19-23 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”
1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel./2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel
Joh_3:27 John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.
Psa 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
God has left nothing to chance, not the cast of the lot, nor the day of our death, but works all things according to His will. The answer to the atheist, therefore, is this one:
“… God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks free-will flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it… must deny my bombshell.” (Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will, Eds. J. I. Packer and O. R. Johnston. Pg. 80)
To explain Luther a little better, what this means is that God, who is omniscient, sees all things before they happened. And, consequently, if He does nothing to change them, He must, therefore, approve of them, and their happening is according to His will. He is not the Arminian who does not know his horse will leap over a fence and cast him off. He is the God who knows all things, and nothing occurs, therefore, without His say so. So the answer to the atheist is: Not only is their evil in the world, but God has purposely ordained it, that every terrible thing, and every good thing, should happen as they do, so that He may bring a greater good out of that evil. So that He may "shew forth His mercy" on the vessels of mercy, and "shew forth His wrath" on the vessels of wrath, ordained to destruction. So all things work according to God's will, and there is not one stray atom in the universe.
“I don’t care about the Arminian view and how they’d read it, or the Papist view, or the Mormon view of these verses. I just want a plain reading of the text.”
So do I. But when one talks about 2-3 verses, then one’s overall understanding of scripture gets involved. In your case, you bring a Calvinist view to those verses, and read predestination into verses that make no mention of it.
“What we are debating, however, is the cause of belief. Please re-read my previous post and properly respond to me.”
We are debating if God gives life to men he preselected with no regard to faith, and after saving them gives them faith, or if faith is a condition God imposes on ALL. WHOSOEVER supports MY view, but makes a mess of yours.
Also, I loath your snarky replies. Either learn to reply like a polite person, or we are finished. Your failure to understand is not moral superiority on your point. I have explained my reasons, and given links that go into much greater depth. In return, you offer attitude but no discussion.
“Me: Neither does it say anywhere in John 6 that those are people who won God’s Life Lottery,
You: Ignoring your mockery, you know as well as I do that it most certainly does, and I have repeatedly asked you to address my points.”
Asserting you are right is not reason. It is vain boasting. Nothing in John 6 says those given to Christ are from a list of elect that God drew up with no reference to their believing, since he would give them faith after giving them life. The point of Calvin is that our response in faith to God does not come from us, but is given to us by God because he already chose to save us. But that is not found anywhere in scripture, and certainly not in John 6. Instead, John wrote:
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Everyone who looks and believes. Calvin inserts God’s “secret will”: that only those on God’s List of Names will be allowed to look and believe. It turns God into a liar, who would lose in court if anyone took him up on his contract offer.
We KNOW who will be given to Jesus: “everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him”.
“You stated earlier that my view is not in these verses, but then you confess my view is in these verses”
Again, no. What I said is that the verses can be treated either way, by themselves. But in context, with the 500 verses about faith and believinn found in the NT alone, then there IS only one consistent way to treat them. In deed, if one reads ALL the verses in John 6 instead of cherry picking, the same conclusion is reached - UNLESS you resort to Calvin’s “hidden will of God” - the will he supposedly has, but doesn’t mention in scripture.
“This doesn’t actually respond to the text, again, regarding the God who “works all things according to the counsel of His will.”
Actually, it does. If the sovereign will of God is to give us choice, then who are you to deny Him? Who is Calvin to order God to not do what God has said He will do? If God decides to do Plan A, who are you or Calvin to say, “No God, you must do it my way!”?
It is bewildering that people want to limit God to deciding I will sin on a given day at a given hour. The Calvinist who told me God made me sin was at least consistent with his view of God, if not with the Bible.
As far back as Genesis 4 we read, “The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
God knew what Cain would do, but He did not need to compel him to do so. When I was stationed in the Philippines, I always knew the outcome of the Super Bowl before we could watch it on TV. When watching it, I knew what would happen, but I did not force it to happen that way. God knows what we will do. When He chooses, He intervenes and makes us do something. But when He chooses, He allows us to make meaningful choices. Thus He commands us to “Repent and believe”, and He knows if we will, but He does not force us to do either - because it is His sovereign will to allow us to do so.