Your previous statement:
"In John 6, Jesus knew full well that much of his audience had no intention of EVER following him....In this sense, it is absolutely true that there are men long past salvation. God will not try to draw them, but will save them up for destruction.
You need to make up your mind on this. So if God foreknows that there are people who will "never" follow Him, and you say He will then not bother to draw them because they are "beyond" salvation, how do you now turn around and say that they are drawn to some degree, but on a lesser level? Does God "start a work in someone" only to not finish it, knowing it is in vain to begin with?
Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
But, more importantly, you are still ignoring my points. You need to answer these questions:
1) Does John 6:37 mean anything in that it is declared that All who are given by the Father to the Son do come to Him, and these same who "come" are in no wise cast out? Are these people preserved? And do all of them actually come? Why or why not?
2) When Christ states that "There are some of you that disbelieve... That is why I told you, no one can come to me unless my Father grants it." Can you explain why we should not connect these statement? Is the latter an explanation for the former (the unbelief), yes or no? And, if they were drawn to the Son "unequally," why does Christ here sound like they were never granted it by the Father to come to the Son? When does the drawing happen, and how, if you believe this, is it different or separate from the "granting" or the "giving" of the Father? Can someone be 'drawn' to the Son, and then "given" to the Son so that they may "come" in response to their positive reaction to the drawing? If this sounds confusing, it's because you have yet to give any explanation for any of these terms and their relationship with each other.
Remember, draw does not equal compel.
Why do you keep repeating this as if I've said otherwise? But how is one "drawn" and yet not "drawn"?
“Now is the time for this world to be judged; now the ruler of this world will be overthrown. 32 When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.” - John 12
How do you reconcile this verse with John 6 (provided you answered my questions prior to coming to this question) or with John 17:9?
Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
If these verses indicate that Christ did not come to draw all men, but only to receive those whom the Father gives to Him, then the explanation for this verse is: By "all men" is meant every sort of man, as the Jews are prone to speaking.
On the contrary, I’ve given my opinion on the subject, while neither you nor Gamecock have given your belief.
Your opinion was "God is just, that is all I'll say." And I have indeed given my view. I even condemned you for claiming that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ for it. Don't you remember?
Calvin claimed that the vast majority of men are condemned to hell, not because they rejected any revelation of God, but because it pleases God to send them to hell.
Can you please quote the relevant letter or passage from his Institutes? Or from Luther's On the Bondage of the Will? Or any of the Reformers? We teach that men are dead in sin and are voluntary sinners and rebels. We do not teach that they do not reject revelation. We teach that they reject revelation, that is, unless God intervenes to save them. But when God intervenes, He does not fail in this process. This is where we differ.
He claimed those saved are saved, not because they responded to God’s revelation with belief, but without any regard for anything they did.
This is exactly correct!
That view makes a liar of God, who said it did depend on repenting and believing, not on some list of names.
How does it make God a liar? The former does not logically lead to the latter. All those whom God saves most certainly repent and believe, and the offer is freely made to the world itself. But the world rejects it, and in so doing the enemies of Christ lose any excuse they have. We do not teach that anyone is compelled to sin or to reject God. We teach that men are born in sin and in rejection of God, and they happily continue to do this, so that if God does not intervene, none would accept His mercy, because they simply do not want it.
I don’t know what your belief is, because you have not been very explicit about yours - only attacking mine.
Says the guy who told me 'God is just, and that is all I'll have to say," and then goes on thumping his chest about how much he explained himself!
“You need to make up your mind on this. So if God foreknows that there are people who will “never” follow Him, and you say He will then not bother to draw them because they are “beyond” salvation, how do you now turn around and say that they are drawn to some degree, but on a lesser level?”
I have explained it in detail, using paragraphs. I see no hope of explaining it in sufficiently short words and sentences for every poster to read with understanding. So I’m going to quit trying to explain to you for now, for the same reason I sometimes walk away from someone I am witnessing to...
Me: He claimed those saved are saved, not because they responded to God’s revelation with belief, but without any regard for anything they did.
You: This is exactly correct!
That is utterly contrary to scripture. God repeatedly says we are saved by grace through faith. He says to repent and believe as the condition for salvation. And he never says he has a ‘secret will’ to irresistibly give faith and belief to people after giving them life, because their names were on a list.
God very explicitly says, again and again, what man must do to be saved. Yes...what man must do. It is in response to God, but it IS a response. It is done by the man who repents (turns away) and believes the promise of God (faith). It is a verb, not a description of something done to a man.
Hundreds of times, the Bible explains what man must do to be saved. I cannot make Calvin accept the Word of God, and I see no point in continuing to repeat what you refuse to listen to. It is rather like discussing math with my dog...
I do not see it as inconsistent that God would draw ALL men, even knowing that some will never respond, no matter what.
It is not in vain that He draws them. When they stand before Him, they will have NO excuse.
God is merciful to the just and the unjust, He sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
In some respect ALL men are being drawn to Him by His mercy and grace even by the simple fact that He has not struck them dead for their sin as they stand.
Scripture says that God desires ALL men to come to a saving knowledge of Himself.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
I'm going with the plain and simple reading of the verse. All means all.
If He wants all men to come to know Him, He will give everyone a chance, even if it's just one.
So the options are that HE either gives everyone a chance but not all respond. Or He picks and chooses, which simply cannot fit with His desire that all men be saved, because if His will is irresistible, then all men WOULD be saved because who can thwart His will?
And we know that all men aren't saved.
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I just cannot reconcile that with a God who would say all that and then choose to send some people to hell, or not ever give them the chance.