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To: Petrosius; daniel1212; BlueDragon; redleghunter; xone; Elsie
Indeed, even without the guidance of the Magisterium I find Protestant interpretations bizarre and at variance with what is actually in the Bible. For the life of me I cannot understand how Protestants can disregard so much of what is in the Bible and twist it to such unbiblical teachings.

Frankly, I find Protestant teachings to be at complete variance to what the Bible actually says. Rather than relying on sola Scriptura, as they claim, Protestants have imposed a false and alien construct upon Scripture, twisting it to support their novel ideas and blatantly ignoring what whatever does not fit. When studied carefully, Protestant teachings are unconvincing and clearly unbiblical.

You've made this claim several times now and I'd like to hear what all these Protestant "teachings" are that you consider bizarre and at variance with what is actually in the Bible, nothing but a twisting and disregarding of Biblical teachings, at complete variance to what the Bible actually says and which are "unconvincing and clearly unbiblical". Go ahead, name them and we can see if you are correct in your view. Just because some may not agree with Roman Catholicism's interpretation or what later was changed to what they believe now - and which the Orthodox are also at variance with you - does not necessarily mean they cannot be proven BY Scripture and most certainly ARE Biblical.

You seem to ignore that MANY doctrines "Protestants" believe are identical to what Roman Catholics and the Orthodox believe, so I find it hard to believe you actually think, "I find Protestant teachings to be at complete variance to what the Bible actually says.". It's not as if the Reformers created an entirely new faith! If you want to defend your blanket defamation of all Protestant beliefs, then why don't you spell them out and we can see whether your argument has legs or is just rhetorical foot dragging.

318 posted on 05/06/2014 9:57:56 PM PDT by boatbums (quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus)
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To: boatbums
Bingo.

That card is covered.

You should get a prize?

I dunno, I never won that game...

320 posted on 05/06/2014 11:20:02 PM PDT by BlueDragon (The Democrats think they are deck officers and our betters, but they cannae tie a bowline)
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To: boatbums
You've made this claim several times now and I'd like to hear what all these Protestant "teachings" are that you consider bizarre and at variance with what is actually in the Bible, nothing but a twisting and disregarding of Biblical teachings, at complete variance to what the Bible actually says and which are "unconvincing and clearly unbiblical". Go ahead, name them and we can see if you are correct in your view.

First I must apologize for the uncharitable and intemperate manner in which I made my remarks. I usually try to avoid that. I just tire of what I see as a stark hypocrisy of some Protestant apologists. While claiming the right of private interpretation of the Bible for themselves they will not grant Catholics the right to interpret the Bible contrary to themselves. Not being content to say that in their opinion that Catholics err in their interpretation of Scripture they insist that it is unbiblical and even pagan.

That being said, I do find Protestant teachings to be contrary to the Bible. By this I mean those teachings that depart from the Catholic faith. As to specifics (Here I am simply pointing out that there are disputes between us that are based on differences in the interpretation of Scripture. I am not calling for a debate on each point.):

1) This very topic is one. To me and other Catholics it seems clear what our Lord meant when he said "You are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (kephas) I will build by church …" To try to deny the clear meaning of these words by harping on the distinction between "Petros" and "petra", which is nothing more than something required by the translation of "Kephas" into Greek because of grammatical gender, is nothing but sophistry.

2) The denial of the clear meaning of our Lord's words "This is my Body …" I just shake my head when I see the mental contortions that Protestants go through to deny the clear words of the Bible.

3) The denial of the sacrament of Penance that was established when Jesus told the Apostles "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them…" These words are clear but Protestants just want to ignore them.

4) The denial of Holy Orders. Acts makes is clear that the authority of the Apostles came from an office that they held and was not just personal. That this office survive the death of the first apostles is shown by the selection of Matthias to replace Judas. Paul also shows the existence of the three orders of episcopoi, presbuteroi and diaconoi which are imparted by the laying on of hands.

5) The Protestant doctrine of "Faith alone". I really do not understand how Protestants can hold this given what is in the Bible:

Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance. Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matt. 3:8,10)

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21)

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. (Jn. 15:1,2)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom. 2:13)

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:19-21)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you. (2 Peter 1:5-11)

Again, I am not inviting a debate on these points; the Protestant response is well known. I am just pointing out despite the constant charge made by Protestants that Catholic teachings go against the Bible, for Catholics it is the Protestants that are unbiblical. Nevertheless I will not say that Protestants are pagan, just that they are in error.
337 posted on 05/07/2014 6:27:25 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: boatbums; Petrosius
You seem to ignore that MANY doctrines "Protestants" believe are identical to what Roman Catholics and the Orthodox believe, so I find it hard to believe you actually think,

I think it is referring to distinctive historical Reformation teachings. Instead, you have justification by one's own personal holiness effected via sprinkling a morally incognizant soul, thus typically ending up with becoming good enough to enter Heaven, out of which they can be bailed early by those on earth, and NT pastors being titled 'priests" (usually under mandate celibacy) since their primary function is dispensing bread and wine the turned into human flesh and blood, as part of a church looking to an infallible supreme head in Rome, and praying to departed saints in Heaven which have Divine powers, none of which is seen in Scripture, but RCs compel support from.

363 posted on 05/07/2014 7:33:56 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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