Shouldn't Bible-believing church leaders be speaking up on "sainthood"? (vanity)

[Faith Presses On]

With it so much in the news right now that the Catholic Church is making two former Popes "saints." shouldn't Bible-believing Christians, and those in leadership in particular, be pointing out the Bible truth on who is a saint is? The media won't do this themselves, and the Catholic use of "saint" has caused a lot of ignorance on this most important matter.

[Faith Presses On]

I don’t have time to reply to all of this this evening, but I will say that your comments on faith here aren’t biblical and apparently call Jesus a liar. Throughout the four Gospels Jesus spoke of faith over and over again, including to people about the faith they had or didn’t have. People were healed and brought back from the dead on the basis of faith. And people have also been martyred on the basis of faith, and suffered or been threatened with it because of faith. Hebrews 11 talks all about faith. The only thing James talks about is that if one *says* he has faith, what he does should display his faith. The Old Testament commandment not to take the Lord’s name in vain is related to this. It doesn’t just mean using His name as a swear word, but actually means lifting up His name in an unworthy manner. If you go around telling people you’re a Christian while having an affair, embezzling, or being greedy, your works don’t match your profession of faith. I must stop here for now, but I wonder from (Cont’d)

[Faith Presses On]

(cont’d) what you write, what you believe about the need for absolute surrender to the Lord, and about witnessing and evangelism.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>If the law of the Lord was written on their hearts, then why did the Lord choose Israel to be His people, and even moreso, send a Savior to die for our sins, taking our sin and punishment on Himself so that we could be credited with his righteousness and have an inheritance in Heaven we don’t deserve?<<<

That is a long, multi-part question. I will try to answer all of them, mostly as a single question; and try to clear up (what I perceive are) some misconceptions.

Recall that, though the Lord chose Israel as his people, he later rejected Israel when it broke the old covenant for the umpteenth time (not to mention torturing and crucifying his Son.) This is Jeremiah on the new covenant. Note that under the new covenant the Lord writes his law in our hearts. That was not the case under the old covenant:

      "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:31-34 KJV)

Jeremiah is prophesying of the Church, New Jerusalem (see Rev 21:3.)

This is Jesus speaking of the rejection of Israel:

      "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons." (Mat 21:33-41 KJV)

Jesus also foretold the rejection of Israel this way:

      "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mat 21:43 KJV)

However, not all of Israel was rejected. A faithful remnant was saved. You have heard of some of them: Peter, James, John, and Paul, among others. They were called the lost sheep of the House of Israel; and Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:

      "But [Jesus]answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 KJV)

Jesus initially sent his disciples only to the lost sheep; until later in their ministries (until Acts 10):

      "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." (Mat 10:5-8 KJV)

Those lost sheep of the house of Israel formed the foundation of our faith, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. Therefore, "all Israel was saved," as Paul indicated in Romans 11:26; but all Israel was not all Israel, since only those of the faith of Abraham were considered his children:

      "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39 KJV)

      "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

The second clause of Romans 11:26 points to this old testament prophecy:

      "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

Note that the only ones saved from Israel are the remnant who the Lord calls (aka, the elect,) and those who call upon the name of the Lord. There were not many saved.

In Hebrews 9, Paul expounds Jesus shedding his blood for the new covenant (aka, the new testament.) Why the new covenant? I can't speak for God, but it seems God may have thought the old covenant with Israel to be unworkable; or, at least, thought the new covenant to be superior to the old. Whatever the case, Christ died for the new covenant, which is the "blueprint" (if you will) for the church:

      "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" (Eph 5:25 KJV)

The church and the world are eternal:

      "… to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph 3:19-21 KJV)

Why did Jesus die for our sins, even though we are undeserving? Well, He loves us:

      "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:16-17 KJV)

      "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." (John 1:10 KJV)

As for your statement "that we could be credited with his righteousness"? I am unsure what you mean; but your statement did remind me of this verse by John:

      "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 Jn 3:7 KJV)

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>I don’t have the answers that the Lord does, and I won’t say how He judges those outside of faith, but look to His command to take the Gospel to all the world, which Christians have done long after any apostles were able to handle actual snakes. <<<

Actually, his commands to preach the gospel in all the world was fulfilled in the days of Paul, in all manners that Jesus commanded. These were his commands:

    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat 24:14 KJV)

    "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Mat 28:18-19 KJV)

    "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15 KJV)

And these are the fulfilments:

    "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mark 16:20 KJV)

    "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Rom 16:26 KJV)

    "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" (Col 1:5-6 KJV)

    "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23 KJV)

The Roman Empire was considered "all the world" in those days:

    "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1 KJV)

Therefore, that prophecy was fulfilled in the contemporary generation of Jesus, exactly like Jesus predicted in the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24:14; Mark 13:10.)

>>>True Christians can still handle spiritual ones, though, including Satan himself.<<<

Jesus was referring to real snakes. Paul got bitten by a viper, and it didn't hurt him: exactly like Jesus predicted:

    "And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand." (Acts 28:3 KJV)

>>>I will not disobey the command to be a witness for the Lord and believe those outside must be safe on that one statement which can be read different ways.<<<

I believe you should be a witness for the Lord. But I suggest you not interpret that statement in any way except the way Christ stated it. This is His statement, again:

    "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17-18 KJV)

All those who received the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (or received the Holy Ghost shortly thereafter from those who had previously received it) had those powers! It means exactly what it says! And we have not seen those powers since those days!

>>>There are many also that talk about faith, and taken altogether it is faith that saves, and works can only come from it. Paul wrote it was impossible to please God without it. <<<

You have quoted no scripture, so I don't have any context for your statement. But I will tell you that Jesus said many times that he will judge us according to our works. I would not be so quick to dismiss that, no matter what the tradition of your denomination demands.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>There are so many passages I could bring in here about faith and love which your personal view of Christianity isn’t including, but with the limitations I have I’ll mention one right now. As Jesus spoke to Paul in Acts 26, He told him he was sending him to the Gentiles to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, so that they might receive forgiveness for sins and an inheritance in Heaven by faith (v. 18).<<<

I am not sure what your point is; but I have a minor point. In verse 18 Paul states the Gentiles were being sanctified by faith in Paul. In other words, they, like all others who never saw Christ, are the ones who believed without seeing:

    "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29 KJV)

>>>When you speak of “strings,” there aren’t strings being attached, but the rest of God’s Word being applied so things aren’t wrongly removed from the context of Scripture. <<<

How did I take my statements about "loving thy neighbour" out of scriptural context? I really would appreciate an answer on that one.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>About Paul becoming like all men (Jew and Gentile) “that he might by all means save some.” (1Corintians 9:22): he is becoming like Gentiles so that *some* might have salvation.<<<

I understand what Paul was implying; but I don't understand your point.

>>>Not being able to work for our salvation, for that would be like God owing us our wages for work done: Romans 4:4 (and the whole chapter, really). Also Jesus told his disciples that when they’d done all He commanded them they were still to call themselves unprofitable servants because they’d only done what was commanded of them.<<<

Again, I do not understand your point. They did what they were commanded, and they received thrones of judgement in the kingdom.

Somehow I get the notion that you do not believe that Christ will judge us according to our works. Is that correct?

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>And that God will judge those on the outside: 1 Corinthians 5:12<<<

What do you mean by that? How do you interpret that? What is your point?

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>I don’t have time to reply to all of this this evening, but I will say that your comments on faith here aren’t biblical and apparently call Jesus a liar.<<<

Then you cannot read, or you do not know Christ. Maybe both.

>>>Throughout the four Gospels Jesus spoke of faith over and over again, including to people about the faith they had or didn’t have. People were healed and brought back from the dead on the basis of faith. And people have also been martyred on the basis of faith, and suffered or been threatened with it because of faith.<<<

That is true. But Christ said we are to be judged according to our works. Do you not believe Christ?

>>>Hebrews 11 talks all about faith.<<<

These are also from the Hebrews:

    "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister." (Heb 6:10 KJV)

    "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:" (Heb 10:24 KJV)

    "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Heb 13:21 KJV)

>>>The only thing James talks about is that if one *says* he has faith, what he does should display his faith.<<<

Actually, James says that if you have faith, what you do WILL display your faith. But that is just a minor point. James also asks this question:

    "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (Jam 2:14 KJV)

Well, can it? Can faith save you?

James also said that you cannot have faith without works:

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (Jam 2:17 KJV)

    "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (Jam 2:26 KJV)

And he said you cannot be justified by faith, alone. Rather, he said that you are justified by your works:

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (Jam 2:24 KJV)

And, in explaining your referenced Romans chapter 4 regarding Abraham's justification by faith, James states:

    "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (Jam 2:20-22 KJV)

And, no matter how we interpret Paul and James, Jesus is on record (many times) stating that he will judge us according to our works. No offense, but I trust Jesus far more than I trust you, or any denomination or creed.

>>>The Old Testament commandment not to take the Lord’s name in vain is related to this. It doesn’t just mean using His name as a swear word, but actually means lifting up His name in an unworthy manner. If you go around telling people you’re a Christian while having an affair, embezzling, or being greedy, your works don’t match your profession of faith. I must stop here for now, but I wonder from what you write, what you believe about the need for absolute surrender to the Lord, and about witnessing and evangelism.<<<

I wonder the same thing about you. Did you become like a little child before you called upon the name of the Lord (Luke 18:17?) Were you poor in spirit (Mat 5:3?) How do you know you are born again? Have you been born of the spirit?

Philip

[Faith Presses On]

I read all that you wrote but I had no time to reply today. I hope to have some time to tomorrow, though.

[Faith Presses On]

I haven’t had time yet to really get back to you on what you wrote, especially since I’ve only had my phone to use the past couple of days. I’ll reply when I can but a short answer is that I am born again and about works, I believe the Bible’s clear message is not good works, but works from faith, and those will truly be good, and the very best that human beings can do.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>I believe the Bible’s clear message is not good works, but works from faith, and those will truly be good, and the very best that human beings can do.<<<

How do you reconcile your statement with this instruction from Jesus?

   "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Mat 5:16 KJV)

I don't know how His instructions could be more clear.

Philip

[Faith Presses On]

I’ve had no time to do anything on the internet the last few days and don’t have much today, either, but for right now let me just say that I don’t follow one denomination. I was born into the Lutheran Church but have followed Jesus since I came to know Him as my Savior.

About your statement right here, I have attempted to explain that I most certainly believe in good works, but they are ones from faith. What about Michael Bloomberg’s recent statement where he said that if there’s a God, he’s going to Heaven and not stopping for interviews. By his good works he is so sure he’s going to Heaven that it’s “not even close.” So what is your response to his statement then?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>What about Michael Bloomberg’s recent statement where he said that if there’s a God, he’s going to Heaven and not stopping for interviews. By his good works he is so sure he’s going to Heaven that it’s “not even close.” So what is your response to his statement then?<<<

Michael Bloomberg? I am speechless. It does not appear that you have (seriously) read anything I have written previously.

Philip

[Faith Presses On]

About some other things first, I’m aware how the word “world” is used when talking of the census, but don’t believe it meant that in every instance in the New Testament. Jesus said to make disciples of all nations and certainly He knew exactly how many there were. On faith and good works and what the Lord’s will is for us, at times the Lord directs us to do things that aren’t in themselves moral questions except that to not listen would be disobedience. Paul was forbidden by the Lord to enter Asia at one point, for example.

On what you wrote about Michael Bloomberg, then I ask you to point a few things in what you’ve written that apply to his remarks.

[Faith Presses On]

Something else, too, is what you quoted about Jesus and good works. Part you didn’t highlight speaks of good works so that our Heavenly Father is glorified.

I also want to mention that I believe in total surrender to the Lord in everything. That’s how I approach everything.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>About some other things first, I’m aware how the word “world” is used when talking of the census, but don’t believe it meant that in every instance in the New Testament.<<<

Why not? Do you have scripture to support your belief, or is it simply a "feeling."

>>>Jesus said to make disciples of all nations and certainly He knew exactly how many there were.<<<

True. He also said that his disciples would fulfil that mission before the end of their generation. If all fits. That is supported by these statements about his "coming:"

    "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:23 KJV)

    "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)

>>>On faith and good works and what the Lord’s will is for us, at times the Lord directs us to do things that aren’t in themselves moral questions except that to not listen would be disobedience.<<<

That is unclear. I recognize you don’t like to, but will you please quoted some scriptural references to support you claims: to provide context. Your opinions are too hard for me to follow.

>>>Paul was forbidden by the Lord to enter Asia at one point, for example.<<<

I have no idea how that relates to our discussion. Again, you provided no context.

>>>On what you wrote about Michael Bloomberg, then I ask you to point a few things in what you’ve written that apply to his remarks.<<<

Nothing I have written during our discussion applies particularly to his recent remarks. He, like all others, will be judged according to his works. And if, by chance, Bloomberg had ever done a single good work (which I seriously doubt,) it would have been instantly negated by his recent braggadocio. Pride is a definite no-no:

    "And [Jesus] said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." (Mark 7:20-23 KJV)

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Something else, too, is what you quoted about Jesus and good works. Part you didn’t highlight speaks of good works so that our Heavenly Father is glorified.<<<

All good works glorify God.

>>>I also want to mention that I believe in total surrender to the Lord in everything. That’s how I approach everything.<<<

That is good.

Philip

[Faith Presses On]

Okay, you did this to what I wrote: >>>On faith and good works and what the Lord’s will is for us, at times the Lord directs us to do things that aren’t in themselves moral questions except that to not listen would be disobedience.<<< That is unclear. I recognize you don’t like to, but will you please quoted some scriptural references to support you claims: to provide context. Your opinions are too hard for me to follow. >>>Paul was forbidden by the Lord to enter Asia at one point, for example.<<< I have no idea how that relates to our discussion. Again, you provided no context. ******* These two statements were right together: "On faith and good works and what the Lord’s will is for us, at times the Lord directs us to do things that aren’t in themselves moral questions except that to not listen would be disobedience. Paul was forbidden by the Lord to enter Asia at one point, for example." Was it against any moral code for Paul to go into Asia? Of course not! But the Holy Spirit forbid that he go, and if he would have gone, he would have been disobedient. And, he had an experience with following the Lord where they walked together closely. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to believers in Him for that reason. What is your belief about Jesus dying for our sins, and His resurrection?

[PhilipFreneau]

Please reformat #398, and resubmit.

Thanks,

Philip

[Faith Presses On]

I’m not sure about the next time I’ll actually be on a computer to do that fairly easily, but it’s really not necessary. See my post #394 and your response at #396. In your post, you took two of my consecutive sentences about one subject and responded to them separately as if they weren’t together and related.