Posted on 04/27/2014 3:47:28 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
The first thing I have to say is that it does trouble me greatly that you talk of part of this discussion as sidetracking and going into esoteric points. It is nothing of the sort. It all relates directly to salvation, and if there really is a Heaven and a Hell and all that the Bible says is true, then this is all that matters, and that’s the message that Jesus Himself preached to people.
We also have to be very careful to let God speak to us. Our rebellious natures can deceive us. What the Lord says is true is reality, and we are infinitely better off to accept that and whatever He says. We need to be getting closer all the time to His will, and to ask Him to change us however we need to be changed. (cont’d)
>>>The first thing I have to say is that it does trouble me greatly that you talk of part of this discussion as sidetracking and going into esoteric points. It is nothing of the sort.<<<
That is a very strange comment, indeed. Do you not recall what you have written? I recommend you can go back to my original post #305 and analyze how the conversation went from my simple comments, to your accusatory statements about “works of the law” and your rambling lectures about things that (certainly) only you understand.
Philip
I wasn’t able to finish my reply last night and can’t right now, either, but we are not justified through works. Jesus spoke of giving alms, prayer, and fasting, and spoke of doing them “in secret” so as to not lose one’s reward. But even there, He wasn’t creating a new rule but instructing that the motive of the heart was what mattered to God. And the point on love was that you said anyone can simply follow the “new law of love,” and then you said “love is love” and pointed to a statement Jesus made on it (the Good Samaritan parable). So you either couldn’t define it or needed Jesus to, but that’s only a start because, going by feeling and their deceptive hearts, people can say things are “love” that aren’t. Love has to agree with truth, and that is the truth of Lord Jesus.
So exactly how would those passages in scripture not apply to the successors of Peter, the Apostles and the Church that Jesus founded? Especially since the ‘us’ in 2 Cor 1:21 clearly refers to Paul and Timothy, and not the Church in Corinth?
Matthew 16:18 would fit quite nicely in there in a defense of apostolic succession.
I habe some difficulty in replying right now due to writing from a phone with some limitations, but I’ll do what I can. To go back to the beginning, you have expressed, it seems, that people might be justified before God outisde of faith in Jesus by their works. You haven’t said, it seems, if you would include those who’ve heard the Gospel with those who never have, but on the latter, you’ve talked about them being able to fulfill Christ’s new law of loving others.
If we’re talking of people who don’t know of Christ, how will they fulfill that? When I asked you to define love you merely said it was love, and also defined it from what Jesus said. But people who haven’t heard the Gospel don’t know how Jesus defined love. (Cont’d)
You also pointed to two statements about God writing things on people’s hearts - the Gentiles, and Israel. In the Romans passage, Paul was emphasizing that everyone has been given a conscience so they won’t be able to claim ignorance, and the whole statement has been read different ways because it isn’t fully explained.
The other statement is about a new covenant with Israel, and it can’t be applied outside of faith in Jesus. You wrote yourself that the covenant comes about through trusting in Jesus. (Cont’d)
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
On that you pointed to Jesus speaking of a “good man out of the good treasure of his heart,” the Bible also says “there is none that is good, no, not one!” And Jesus also said there is “only one that is good, God,” and said to His disciples, “if you, then, being evil...” So does God’s Word contradict itself, or is some of it wrong and other parts right? No to both. We are to allow God’s Word to show us how to read it when something isn’t clear.
The question on faith and works is one that needs to be answered that way. And while you talk of at least some unbelievers being justified by the works of the new law, that isn’t said. The Bible says we’re justified by faith in Jesus Christ, not by works. It doesn’t say we’re justified by works of the new law rather than the old. For more on both the Catholic and evangelical positions on the question (CONT’D)
here are four articles about it: “Bible says faith and works needed for salvation” (EWTN), “Doesn’t John 3:16 clearly indicate that faith alone is necessary for salvation?” (Catholic.org?), “Is salvation by faith alone, or faith plus works?” (gotquestions.org) and “Are we saved by faith or do we need works too?” (carm.org).
Also consider, too, that Paul wrote that he became like a Jew, though no longer under the law as he was, and also like a Gentile, so he could “by all means save some.” Jesus commanded that we “go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations.” He also said Christians were to be salt and light in the world. But if people can be all right with God without Jesus, why would Jesus have said those things? (cont’d)
The Bible also explains, though, if salvation is by works, then it’s like that we’re working so God owes us what’s our own. We’ve purchased salvation for ourselves, but Paul says we can’t do that and God can’t owe us. Salvation can only be through God showing mercy to us. And, Paul also says that Christians will judge the church, but outside is for God to judge. We, though, have been given the command to take the Gospel to all nations.
This brought me to a question about the Catholic Church that I haven’t so far found an answer to. Does it work today in going into places where the Gospel isn’t known, and even the language of the people isn’t known to outsiders, to bring the Gospel to the people and translate God’s Word into their language. I know evangelicals do.
Paul explained that in Romans 2:12-15, which I posted earlier (twice.)
>>>When I asked you to define love you merely said it was love, and also defined it from what Jesus said.<<<
Yes, that is what I said.
>>>But people who haven’t heard the Gospel don’t know how Jesus defined love.<<<
Paul indicated it didn't matter whether they had heard the Gospel, or not, if the law of the Lord was written in their hearts (by nature, he explained.) Please go back and re-read Romans 2:12-15. Until you understand that passage, I don't believe you will understand anything else I have written on the subject.
Philip
That is correct. Jesus also mentioned it in this verse:
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45 KJV)
>>>In the Romans passage, Paul was emphasizing that everyone has been given a conscience so they won’t be able to claim ignorance, and the whole statement has been read different ways because it isn’t fully explained.<<<
I think Paul explained it well.
>>>The other statement is about a new covenant with Israel, and it can’t be applied outside of faith in Jesus.<<<
What is faith in the Lord? The Lord is God, who is Love. Jesus stated, if you love your neighbour you have fulfilled the law. He also implied that if you love your neighbour you love God. There are no strings attached. You are welcome to attach as many strings as you like, but not me.
>>>You wrote yourself that the covenant comes about through trusting in Jesus. <<<
It is true that if you "call upon the name of the Lord" you will be saved. That action necessitates a good heart. You cannot call upon His name, otherwise. You show trust in Jesus when you keep his commandments, whether or not you have ever heard the name "Jesus."
I am not sure if this will help, or not: but I recommend you try to look at Jesus as a spirit, rather than as a man.
Philip
Not in the context you have been using in our discussion. Christians throw the "faith" word around all the time; but I have rarely met anyone who has tried to understand it. For example, John 3:16 reads:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 KJV)
Jesus also said:
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38 KJV)
Jesus was referring to those who received the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know anyone like that? How about this verse:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12 KJV)
Do you know anyone who has done greater works than Jesus? I don't.
And certainly you recall that Jesus said that if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed you can move mountains (Mat 17:20.) Have you seen anyone moving any mountains lately?
Therefore, we must explore other possible avenues of justification, because, obviously, no one has faith even as a grain of mustard seed. LOL!
Well, Jesus gave us other avenues. For example, he said,
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12 KJV)
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15 KJV)
So, all you have to do is love others and you have fulfilled his commandments; and, as aforementioned, you have also fulfilled all the law. And, guess what? If you follow his commandments, and do the works required by them (e.g., love your neighbors,) aren't you showing your faith in Him? And recall that James asked this question,
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (Jam 2:14 KJV)
And after a explaining the reason for his question, James summarizes with this:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (Jam 2:24 KJV)
As explained above, if we were required to be justified by faith, only, none of us would be saved; because none of us have any measurable, stand-alone faith. But, as James explained, when we do good works, we have shown our faith:
"…shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (Jam 2:18 KJV)
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (Jam 2:26 KJV)
All the philosophical debate about "faith," since the beginning of time, cannot explain away verses like the following from Jesus and his apostles:
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Mat 16:27 KJV)
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Tit 3:8 KJV)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:" (Heb 10:24 KJV)
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" (1 Pet 1:17 KJV)
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (1 Jn 3:12 KJV)
"I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." (Rev 2:19 KJV)
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12 KJV)
Also recall these verses about Abraham and the promises:
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)
"… Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39 KJV)
>>>(Catholic.org?), “Is salvation by faith alone, or faith plus works?” (gotquestions.org) and “Are we saved by faith or do we need works too?” (carm.org).<<<
I don't have the time to research those sites. If you take the time to quote from them, I will be glad to respond.
>>>Also consider, too, that Paul wrote that he became like a Jew, though no longer under the law as he was, and also like a Gentile, so he could “by all means save some.” <<<
I'm not sure how that fits the context of our discussion.
>>>Jesus commanded that we “go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations.”<<<
When Jesus sent forth his disciples, he sent them with this understanding:
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17-18 KJV)
Do you know any of those new "disciples?" Do you know any real faith healers? I don't. LOL!
>>>He also said Christians were to be salt and light in the world. But if people can be all right with God without Jesus, why would Jesus have said those things?<<<
I believe that if you love your neighbour, you have Jesus in your heart, whether you know his name, or not.
Philip
Please post scripture for that statement so I can see the context.
>>>We’ve purchased salvation for ourselves, but Paul says we can’t do that and God can’t owe us. Salvation can only be through God showing mercy to us. And, Paul also says that Christians will judge the church, but outside is for God to judge.<<<
Again, please post supporting scripture so I can see the context.
>>>We, though, have been given the command to take the Gospel to all nations.<<<
I commented on this in my previous post. I am awaiting your response to my comments.
>>>This brought me to a question about the Catholic Church that I haven’t so far found an answer to. Does it work today in going into places where the Gospel isn’t known, and even the language of the people isn’t known to outsiders, to bring the Gospel to the people and translate God’s Word into their language. I know evangelicals do.<<<
I'm not sure I understand your question. I don't know much about Catholics, but I tend to believe that they have spread the gospel, in their own way of course.
Philip
Again, I’m limited in how I can reply, and even the length of the reply, on my phone. I am very thankful for it, though.
Here are some comments, though. If the law of the Lord was written on their hearts, then why did the Lord choose Israel to be His people, and even moreso, send a Savior to die for our sins, taking our sin and punishment on Himself so that we could be credited with his righteousness and have an inheritance in Heaven we don’t deserve? (cont’d)
I don’t have the answers that the Lord does, and I won’t say how He judges those outside of faith, but look to His command to take the Gospel to all the world, which Christians have done long after any apostles were able to handle actual snakes. True Christians can still handle spiritual ones, though, including Satan himself.
I will not disobey the command to be a witness for the Lord and believe those outside must be safe on that one statement which can be read different ways. There are many also that talk about faith, and taken altogether it is faith that saves, and works can only come from it. Paul wrote it was impossible to please God without it. (Cont’d)
Romans 2:12 can simply be read that no one has an excuse before God. All know that stealing, murder, and even blasphemy are wrong. We’re given that knowledge, and our conscience reminds us of it. If we do wrong, our thoughts accuse, and when we do right, they excuse. But all that doesn’t mean innocence and justification before God. It only means we have knowledge and are responsible for it. The liar often tells the truth so he knows the difference. The adulterer doesn’t have sex with every woman. The thief doesn’t always steal. But all have broken all of God’s commandments and are guilty and know it. (Cont’d)
There are so many passages I could bring in here about faith and love which your personal view of Christianity isn’t including, but with the limitations I have I’ll mention one right now. As Jesus spoke to Paul in Acts 26, He told him he was sending him to the Gentiles to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, so that they might receive forgiveness for sins and an inheritance in Heaven by faith (v. 18).
When you speak of “strings,” there aren’t strings being attached, but the rest of God’s Word being applied so things aren’t wrongly removed from the context of Scripture. (Cont’d)
About Paul becoming like all men (Jew and Gentile) “that he might by all means save some.” (1Corintians 9:22): he is becoming like Gentiles so that *some* might have salvation.
Not being able to work for our salvation, for that would be like God owing us our wages for work done: Romans 4:4 (and the whole chapter, really). Also Jesus told his disciples that when they’d done all He commanded them they were still to call themselves unprofitable servants because they’d only done what was commanded of them. (Cont’d)
And that God will judge those on the outside: 1 Corinthians 5:12.
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