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To: annalex
You are still misusing Philippians chapter 2, as I have explained, with yourself having quoted a portion of that explanation, but seemingly only grasping one portion of what was said even there, neglecting the rest.

When speaking of this "venerating" of those perceived to be saints, you said

Being there is not any sense of recommendation to pray to "saints" found in that chapter (or any other chapter, for that matter) your own use of the word because while referring to that particular passage, must obviously import from elsewhere the assumption that veneration and/or prayer to saints is equal to (or much as?) worshiping God, while also likening to this "veneration" spoken of to God himself working within, in persons (those whom Paul was addressing) "... both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will".

Again, pick some other source or chapter of Paul's writings, or from the Gospels, if you wish to establish that praying to saints is as God working within a person.

But I suggest the impossible, for though there was some amount of "veneration of saints" from quite early on in the history of the church, to go from simpler veneration which was more as form of remembrance of those persons, as can be found from fairly early on in church tradition, to then go far beyond that to a "seek[ing]... support, advice or intercession" directly from them, rather than from God more directly --- as I wrote to you -- confuses the issue as it confuses identities.

The saints are not God, nor is there recommendation (in scripture) for any to pray to any such persons similar to how one is instructed to pray to God.

From Philippians chapter 4

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

We see near the end of the above quoted from chapter, recommendation that the saints (those then living) be "saluted", but not to be considered later to be as God, or like unto being God in having some continuing roles of having direct intercourse (conversation) with us from the heavenlies.

Teachings or direction for doing so ---this blending of veneration of saints likened or made equal to worshiping God, even to degree of asking directly for advice (and/or guidance) from them cannot be found in scripture, particularly Philippians chapter 2.

In Paul's epistles to the Philippians, it is not ourselves --- by our own veneration prayers to saints (which Paul wrote not of) which he [Paul] was speaking of when he wrote of God working within them [those whom he was writing to]..

Your use of the word because in your own explanation of justification for citing Philippians 2:13 finds no foundation there, and dangerously confuses the issues.

Look elsewhere for support for your own confusions.

1,155 posted on 04/11/2014 12:37:29 PM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
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To: BlueDragon
there is not any sense of recommendation to pray to "saints" found in that chapter

I agree and I never implied otherwise. The "because" points to the nature of sanctity as a supreme work of God, not to some recommendation in that verse to specifically pray to saints.

Veneration of saints is never directly advised in the Bible, for the simple reason that in order there to be saints in heaven to pray to, a generation of Christian martyrs had to come and obtain martyrdom. That fell outside of the historical scope of the New Testament (with one or two exceptions). We see, however, two harbingers of the veneration of saints: a woman spontaneously venerating Mary and Jesus pointing that there are others likewise worthy of veneration; and the conversation between Jesus and the two Old Testament saints, Moses and Elijah shown to the Apostles at the Transfiguration. Neither episode actually teaches veneration of saints, but it prepares the ground for it to blossom later.

you wish to establish that praying to saints is as God working within a person.

I am sorry. Now and then I take time to give you a good explanation and answer your questions in full, and then I read something like this from you. Where did I say anything similar? I said that praying to a saint simultaneously worships God because it is God Who made the saint. Please tell me you wrote that without thinking, or else do not be surprised if I simply ignore your post, like I ignore some others.

1,301 posted on 04/12/2014 10:45:34 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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