This is your typical run of the mill Catholic Mass - the whole thing, with all the Scripture chapter and verse:
This is incredible. The fact is that unlike your “Catholic Mass Scripture” special work that you provided as an example of scripture is a Catholic mass, the missal does not provide all these Scripture references. And hardly any of them are direct quotes, less alone actually supporting what they are referenced for! Thus based on your "rules" and example it would be even easier to present a Prot service that has more scripture than a Catholic mass based upon all that a Scripture reference can be given for — even “Amen” as in your Mass!
So this is what you mean by "Catholic masses do have more scripture than protestant services?!" I presumed this meant actual quotes or actual reading of Scripture, not everything you can throw a reference at! But that measure we could give Scripture references for far more in a Prot. sermon then what is actually quoted. As said as the close of this, Did you really think that any Protestant claim that the Mass had less Scripture was referring to how many things one can give references for, valid or not! Absurd!!! Any such claim refers to how much of Scripture is read and exposited in a comprehensive manner. In evangelical churches, which you never even attended, the preacher preaches from Scripture with the congregates having their Bible open to read what he reads and examine it thereby. Now you know what “contrived is a fitting word to describe your contest. At the least, this further evidences your lack of consideration of what your challenge entails.
"...what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able..." (Luke 14:31) Your contest evidences such a lack of consideration as to make it meaningless.
Now lets go thru your list of the use of Scripture, eand also look at the validity of their use,, ven though RCs do not even see these references in their missal (Scriptural substantiation e not being the basis for assurance.)
In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)
An actual text, though no NT pastors was ever titled "priest" (hiereus) nor does presbuteros (elder) mean that, but which is a case of imposed functional equivalence, while "priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions." "When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice [after Rome's theology], the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests.." - Catholic writer Greg Dues in “Catholic Customs & Traditions , a popular guide”
People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)
"Amen" counts as use of Scripture! As you allow that most Protestant ` services are not liturgical, then what occurs during a service should be allowed as constituting containing Scripture, included "Amen." Amen, or do more rules follow?
Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:13)
An actual text, but which is heard every week, and does not constitute usage that promotes Biblical literacy, and which the the charge against the Mass as not having much Scripture refers to. But you are acting according the letter of such.
All: I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, (Jas 5:16) in my thoughts and in my words (Jas 3:6)
Nether of these are Scripture quotes, but the references simply are given in support, with the latter (James 3:6: “the tongue is a fire....”) not even referring to thoughts. Thus your criteria not only allows for what may be given a Scripture reference for, but even if the latter does not refer to it.
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, (Rom. 12:16)
Not an actual text, and which also further examples the loose nature of what a Scripture reference can refer to. Romans 12:16 states: Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Fitting references would have been 2Cor. 5:10 and James. 4:17
through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1Thess 5:25)
1Thess 5:25 simply says “Brethren, pray for us,” and is not directed to Heaven but those on earth, and despite over 200 prayers to Heaven in Scripture, not one examples or teaches prayer to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord. Extrapolating an equivalence of ability between earthly relationships and earth to heaven relationships is invalid, as it requires created beings to posses attributes of Deity which only God is shown as having (hearing from Heaven incessant mental prayers from earth addressed to them beseeching favor, and responding.)
May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)
Not an actual text, and support forgiveness without a clerical priest.
People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)
More substantial evidence of the great use of Scripture in Mass!
The former says “pray that God would have pity on us” but is from a book (Tobit) that is a spurious fantastic tale about a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and ‘the worst of demons’, abducts and kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated!
And about a man, Tobias, who was sleeping with his eyes open while birds dropped dung into in his eyes (sound sleeper!) and blinded him. And who later is attacked by a fish leaping out of the river to devour him! But Raphael has him capture it and later he burns the fish’s liver and heart to drive away the demon Asmodeus away to Upper Egypt, enabling him and Sarah to consummate his marriage!
The latter (1 Tim 1:2) is not an actual quote, but says, “Grace, mercy, and peace, from God, and our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.”
All: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will. (Luke 2:14)
An actual quote, but as with the others, it is an added reference for a weekly redundant liturgy which fosters perfunctory professions.
We praise you, we bless you, we adore you, we glorify you, we give you thanks for your great glory, (Rev 7:12)
Not an actual quote, but is of correspondent angelic praise.
Lord God, heavenly King, O God, almighty Father (Rev 19:6)
Not an actual quote, but correspondent as “Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.”
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son, (2 John 3)Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; (John 1:29)
Not actual quotes, but correspondent.
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer; you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us. (Rom 8:34)
Not an actual quote, and was not an actual request (who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.)
For you alone are the Holy One, (Luke 4:34)
Partly an actual quote, if said by demons. Out of 40 places “the Holy One” occurs, they pick this! But as often with the catechism, it appears Scripture texts are carelessly added for support after the doctrine is written, not as actually based upon it.
you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, (Luke 1:32)
Not an actual quote, and the texts states “Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.”
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father, Amen (John 14:26)
Far from an actual quote, and simply supports that there is a Father, Son and Spirit.
A Sermon on the readings follows. (2 Tim 4:1-2)
Two actual verses.
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all things visible and invisible. (Col 1:16)
Not actual quotes, and the former says “possessor of heaven and earth” and the latter refers to Christ as being how all was created. It would have been easy to find texts that say God is the creator of all (Gn. 2:1; Rv. 4:11) but again, poor or careless invocations of Scripture abound in Rome.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son of God, (Luke 1:35)
Not an actual quote: “that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Jn. 3:16 or Heb. 1:5 would provide more direct support.
born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father; (Heb 1:3)
Not an actual quote, but the text is supportive as would Jn. 8:42.
through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3)
Close enough.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13)
Not an actual quote, but supportive, if again, heard every week.
and by the power of the Holy Spirit he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18)
Not an actual quote, but repetitively supportive.
and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16)
Likewise not an actual quote, and does not mention Pilate. Mk. 15:15 would be more fitting.
he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4)
Not an actual quote, but supportive.
He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51)
Likewise.
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1)
Likewise.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1)
Likewise, but does not mention coming again in glory, as Mt. 16:27 does.
and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33)
Close enough.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17)
Again not an actual quote, and far from it. Does not mention Lord, or directly as giving life. 2Cor. 3:17 says “the Lord is that Spirit and Job. 33:4 says “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” The Holy Spirit and Jesus are God in nature but positionally Christ is made Lord till all His enemies are under His feet. (1Cor. 15:24-28)
who proceeds from the Father and the Son, (John 14:16)
Along with Jn. 15:26, from the Father through the Son, but Rome seems afraid of giving more than one book reference and placing too much prominent weight on Scripture. This from the Father versus from both was an issue that served as a reason for the EOs split.
who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
Again not an actual quote, and does not mention corporately being an object of worship, though assumed.
I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5)
Again not an actual quote, and only directly supports the church being a mystical body of believers.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)
Not an actual quote, and in Rome “for” is interpretive as the act rendering one washed and regenerate, and made good enough inside for Heaven, even if the soul is morally incognizant and baptism is possible performed by an atheist (“intending to do as the church does”), while Scripture shows and states that it is the faith that baptism requires and expresses that is salvific and appropriates justification by faith. (Acts 10;43-47; 15:7-9; Rm. 4:1-7ff) Thus begins the false gospel of Rome, which process usually ends with souls becomes good enough to enter Heaven through suffering in mythical Roman purgatory commencing at death.
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen
Again not an actual quote, and only directly supportive of the resurrection. 1Thes. 4:17 and Rv. 20:6 better supports the latter for the regenerate, which few RCs are. .
Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35)
Again not an actual quote, while it begins the false Christianized paganism of Catholicism called the Eucharist.
People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)
At least “blessed be God” is a direct quote, V. 35 in the KJV.
Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)
Again not an actual quote, but refers to the Lord, in the midst of a communal meal, which unlike in Catholicism or even most churches, the Lord's Supper was, telling the apostles to drink the cup. (Mt. 26:27; 1Cor. 11:25-27) Obviously the cup represents the wine, but Catholics, while boasting of who literally they take this account, refuse to take drinking the cup literally, as they do when David called water the blood of men and would not drink it, but poured it out like as an offering, as blood was not to be drunken. Though the representative meaning of such should be obvious, Catholics insist on turning the commemorative Supper — in which the members are to “show” the Lord's sacrificial death and resurrection by showing caring unity in the communal meal, effectual recognizing each other as members for whom Christ died, as 1Cor. 11:17-34 teaches — into a Christianized version of endo-cannibalism.
In the Catholic imagination, NT pastors were consecrating bread and distributing it to the people as their primary function, but they cannot find one
People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)
More repetition.
Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)
Desperate. Far from an actual quote, all this refers to is “grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear” in the light of the coming judgment.
People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his holy Church. (Ps 50:23)
Also far from an actual quote, and it is not about sacrifice per se or the church, but praise and obedience to God and His salvation.
People: We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)
Which is not about an offering of elements, but “Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.”
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God. (Col 3:17)
Again not an actual quote.
People: It is right and just. (Col 1:3)
Also far from an actual quote: We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you.” Did they ever hear of a concordance and Ps. 33:1?
All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3)
Only the first sentence is an actual quote, and does not mention Heaven and earth being full of His glory, though “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork”. (Psalms 19:1; cf. 1Chron. 29:11)
Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)
An actual quote in the middle sentence.
Priest: You are Holy indeed, O Lord the fount of all holiness. (2 Macc. 14:36)
Not quite an actual quote and from an apocryphal book that supports prayer for souls which died due to moral sin, which Rome disallows prayer as being effectual for.
Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray, by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. At the time he was betrayed and entered willingly into his Passion (John 10:17-18)
Far from an actual quote, and there is nothing here about transubstantiation. At all.
he took bread and, giving thanks, broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying: Take this all of you, and eat of it: For this is my body which will be given up for you. In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice and, once more giving thanks, he gave the it to his disciples, saying: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: For this is the chalice of my blood, the blood of the new and eternal covenant. Which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25)
Actual quotes, while the devil also quotes Scripture (Mt. 4) and thus the meaning is what matters.
All: When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again. (1Cor 11:26)
Not an actual quote, and it is not when Catholics presume to consume physical flesh that the Lord's death is shown. but by how communal meal shows Christ's death for the church as the body of Christ. That is the body of Christ in the chapter referenced.
Priest: Therefore, as we celebrate the memorial of his Death and Resurrection, we offer you, Lord, the Bread of life and the Chalice of salvation, (John 6:51)
Also far from an actual quote but an imposed meaning. If John 6:51 was literal, then Catholics gain spiritual and eternal life (Jn. 6:53,54) by consuming human body parts and will never die, but NOWHERE is spiritual and eternal life obtained by physically eating anything, but by believing the gospel message. (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) out of a broken heart and contrite spirit. (Ps. 34:18) Thanks be to God.
Humbly we pray that, partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, we may be gathered into one by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.10:17)
Also far from an actual quote. It is not by partaking of the Lord Supper that the members become gathered into one by the Holy Spirit, but they practically show it. And if this is referring to the literal body and blood of Christ, then pagans also partake of the literal body and blood of their deities in partaking of their religious feats. (1 Cor.10:20-21)
Remember, Lord, your Church spread throughout the world; bring her to the fullness of charity, together with our Pope and our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have fallen asleep and all who have died in your mercy: welcome them into the light of your face. (2 Macc 12:45-46)
Again not an actual quote and refers to praying for souls that died because of mortal sin, with no evidence to presume repentance. “Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. “(2Ma 12:40)
Have mercy on us all, we pray, that with the blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with the apostles and with all the saints who have pleased you throughout the ages, may we merit to be co-heirs to eternal life, and may praise and glorify you through your Son, Jesus Christ. (2 Thes 1:4-5)
Again not even close to an actual quote or a text that supports PTDS. Not even close. Contrived support for a contrive doctrine.
All: Amen. (Rom 11:36)
A direct quote. Amazing how much Scripture is actually used! /Sar
There is not much left, but at this Amen I am going to stop here due to fatigue and time considerations, while more examination would only show more that this proffered proof of Scripture in Mass is absurd. The attendants are not even being directed to Scripture as the source, very few are even actual quotes, and most of what they hear they is referenced in your particular document is the same week after week, thus how are they becoming taught much Scripture? Much less correctly? Again, did you really think that any Protestant claim that the Mass had less Scripture was referring to how many things one can give references for, valid or not! Absurd!!! any such claim refers to how much of Scripture is read and exposited in a comprehensive manner. Now you know why “contrived is a fitting word to describe your contest.
God bless you, dan, for all your hard work in providing references like that.
” But as often with the catechism, it appears Scripture texts are carelessly added for support after the doctrine is written, not as actually based upon it.”
You said it all right here... And unfortunately, not being conversant with God’s Word, they don’t understand.
Lutheran Divine Service settings are similar, without the Marian and Apochryphal references. The sermon is based on a Biblical text. I could have submitted the Matins order of worship especially since it didn’t have to be ‘word for word’ out of the Scripture. I really enjoyed the different ‘Amen’ citations that incurred credit for another passage. LOL. Really nice work on that post.
I would dare bet against that.
The Scripture reference for "Amen!" caught my eye the first time LurkingSince'98 raised it because a Protestant Service can become quite full of Amens!
To that end, in the following song - one of my most beloved - there are at least 35 "amens" - and the Gospel story to boot, which would entail Scripture references on end. I'm not asking you to do the parsing and tallying, but I'm certain that the number of Scripture references in just this one song would be huge.
Any hoot, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, and especially you Jim Robinson - here's Amen!