Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[CynicalBear]

Here’s something much more important. How they respond to scripture. Scripture says.

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God

But the Catholic Church says.

“We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendor of religious ceremonial. We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments etc. were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; but they were common to almost all cults” (Catholic Encyclopedia, III, 246.)

Don’t try to get me down some rabbit trail of “we have more” when the Catholic Church doesn’t care a wit about what God says.

[Alex Murphy]

There was nothing specifically Protestant about the Declaration of Independence, or the Constitution.

BWA HAHAHAHAHAHA

[daniel1212]

How about a contest to see whose religious tradition supports a constitutional representative republic in the USA better, and can bring this country back from socialism faster?

Because even if you restrict "Catholic" to weekly attendees, which Rome does not, then you already lost the contest. At least pitting one RC mass, with perhaps a priest who is persuades to actually quote a lot or Bible texts, against any Prot service offers some contrived, if basically meaningless, chance of winning.

[annalex]

I am all for checking scripture with other scripture. I just did that: the Magnificat, the constant presence of Mary during Jesus' ministry, her role in fighting the Dragon in the Revelation all are consistent with fullness of grace that drove out sin.

It only says the event is over. It does NOT describe the ontological nature of the event.

Right, but we also know the nature of grace as antidote of sin: "by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved" (Acts 15:11); "where sin abounded, grace did more abound. That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 5:20-21). We do not think of grace as of something that may just disappear overtime.

[daniel1212]

There is no doubt that today's Catholics are much more Bible-literate than their ancestors. However, they are also much more liberal. Catholic Biblicism is thoroughly liberal and higher critical, having swallowed every lie of liberal Protestantism (ironically, in an attempt to distinguish themselves from Fundamentalist Protestants as well as to discredit the Bible as a religious guide).

And the evidence, and even sanctioned notes , support much the latter.

[daniel1212]

WOW! You ARE brave! Willing to risk $750 on HERESAY!

At least the letter, if not the spirit, of such a statement may find some support.

[Gamecock]

On my smart phone, got a link to the Calvin being the founding father of America and Presbyterian Rebellion threads?

I also seem to remember more than a couple Roman Catholics being Monarchists.

[LurkingSince'98]

Posters living immoral lives are not conservative in any sense of the word.

AMDG

[LurkingSince'98]

So far zero protestants said they can prove their point if you can prove it then do it otherwise it’s just talk.

AMDG

[CynicalBear]

>> I believe that was in response to my statement that "to be graced means you have found favor" (charis: Lk. 1:30).<<

In that case the word χάριν is used in Lk. 1:30.

The word χάριν as also found in:

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

And.

Acts 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

And.

Acts 7:46 He found favor in God's sight and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.

And.

Acts 25:9 And Festus willing to lay on the Jews a favour, answering Paul, said, 'Art thou willing, to Jerusalem having gone up, there concerning these things to be judged before me?'

And other places. I do believe his question for me was “Find where else "χαρις" should be translated as "favor" and not as "grace".” That seems to be answered in abundance. Of course if he actually studied scripture he would have known that.

[CynicalBear]

>>Says the man who said a scant twelve hours ago that<<

Ironic isn’t it?

[LurkingSince'98]

It wouldn’t be hearsay if some protestant put his money where his mouth is.

But they can’t prove their assertion.

AMDG

[LurkingSince'98]

Yet still you claim that protestant services have more scripture than a catholic Mass but can’t prove it.

[Gamecock]

Glad we have you as a role model. </sarc>

[LurkingSince'98]

Catholic priests have ZERO leeway in adding or subtracting from the liturgy.

Daily Mass is no different from Sunday mass in that tha priest cannot change add or subtract one word from what is printed for the liturgy of that day.

At the very most the priest has a couple of choices of different passages to read which would not amount to 100 words if that.

Silly protestants you don’t even know that every word of a Catholic mass is printed in the daily/Sunday missal.

If you wanted to know exactly what your up against just look it up in the missal.

The funny thing is even the fallen away Catholics didn’t bring that up lots of help and insight they are.

AMDG

[CynicalBear]

>>Yet still you claim that protestant services have more scripture than a catholic<<

Please show any post where I said that. Spreading falsehoods is a sin you know. Surely you would want to show the post where I said what you claim or apologize for spreading a falsehood.

In reality I couldn’t care less who has more. As I’ve shown you the Catholic Church doesn’t care a wit what scripture says so what good is more scripture in their rituals?

[annalex]

i did not reject that she was full of grace (as one filled with the Spirit) but that the text is simply saying she is graced.

"κεχαριτωμενη", however is different than "πληρης χαριτως" or something, that would call for the simpler translation. It is used just one other time in the Holy Scripture:

Lo, is not a word better than a gift? but both are with a justified [κεχαριτωμενω] man (Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 18:17).

The context here is the state of final justification, "the reward of God [that] continueth for ever" (Ibid. 18:22), -- that is exactly the state of final, complete blessedness that Mary received with the Incarnation.

I agree that simply "graced" is technically possible but it removes the poetic alliteration present in the Lucan text.

χάρις as "favor" is the very word even the DRB uses in [several places in Acts]

But all your examples are when the context is not divine grace, but indeed human favor: "favour with all the people", "favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharao", "favour against him" even. Search in St. Paul, -- every time he teaches about grace as a theological concept he uses "χάρις", of course, with proper inflections.

some of what doctors and prelates teach on faith and morals is just as inspired as Scripture and just as fully [...] infallible statements by doctors and prelates of the church are the wholly inspired revelation of God

Of course: we don't have two Holy Spirits, one for the doctors and prelates who wrote the New Testament and another for the rest.

Infallibility is not “on par” with divinely inspired Scripture.

Did I say it was? I said that the nature of inspiration is the same today as in 1 c. Infallibility is a smaller notion indeed: it is merely absence of error.

How many infallible statements would you even approx. say there are?

The entire teaching of the Holy Church, as expressed for example in the Catechism of the Church is infallible. Inspired, -- we don't really know as it is a stronger claim. Here is a good example: Leo XIII's Prayer to St. Michael. The Rosary prayers, for sure. Most of the insights in the Summa. On Incarnation of St. Athanasius. Often reading the fathers of the Church you see the presence of the Holy Spirit in them, certain super human quality.

[LurkingSince'98]

The rhetorical ‘you’ meaning the protestants on this forum .

Are you saying then that you actually believe that Catholic mass has more scripture than a protestant service?

That’s great

[annalex]

changing a single word to better suit your own premise

I explained it once. I changed to suit "you" to "them" the grammar. If you don't get it, I don't care any more.

not knowing the translation which you used

Douay.

May I suggest...

Sure. Suggest. I kinda lost interest, but go ahead, for whoever reads your opus. I can only repeat: the prayer to a saint is addressed to the particular saint (or a group of saints) because that is how the faithful is lead by the Holy Ghost to pray. Also a prayer to any saint venerates God who made His saints.