What are your thoughts about him bowing down to Muslim women?
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Locked on 04/14/2014 6:31:52 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Lunar eclipse tonight. |
Posted on 04/05/2014 5:57:23 AM PDT by Gamecock
Alex
back again for a few.
it must be a worship service that any member of the protestant caucus or Calvanist light brigade actually attends.
I am going to just stick with our little Catholic parish in the middle of nowhere in comparison with any protestant church so long as they are a member.
This is because the protestant folks who told me are “church going protestants” which may not be the case on the forum. so it could be a family member is a member there like christian life or some other congregation, but they must attend.
Plus there must be a recording documenting the scripture verses, transcription would be nice including chapter and verse references.
Plus if i win and Jimbo doesn’t get my $750 is the Calvinist brigade going to ante up? or will Jim be the loser?
I don’t think this is difficult at all. Catholics are known entities, every Mass is virtually identical - your link was correct so you know exactly what you are up against.
Alex, I hope you keep your head in the race...
For the Greater Glory of god
I'm happy to hear you're going to be careful about what you say about God's mercy. We ought to be careful about what we say concerning all of God's actions. But, this also means that we should be careful when the Scriptures claim that God does "deny choice". For example, Rom. 9. May want to check that out...evidently God reserves choice for Himself.
Do you have Prince Albert in the can?
and no, I'm not Elsie. Just veneratin' emulatin'
What there is more of on Tuesday is more contrived Catholic polemics. You should make at least a 750 donation for RCs using FR as RC promotional and apologetics service, and for engaging in such specious contrivances as here. For consider the absurdity of your challenge. Not only do RCs define “Protestant” so broadly that you can drive a Unitarian/Mormon/Watchtower 747 thru its gate, but you carefully said “a” protestant service on any Sunday. Which means you simply have to find one Unitarian church or whatever in the whole world that has less Scripture than in a Catholic Mass!
Moreover, what you also leave out is that much of the Scripture you do hear in a Mass is repetition. Besides the standard readings one hears weekly as part of the liturgy, the readings for SUN TWENTIETH SUNDAY IN ORDINARY TIME (picked at random) were listed as : Is 56:1, 67/ Rom 11:13-15, 29-32/Mt 15:21-28. A total of 17 verses if i counted correctly, out of approx. 31,000 total verses in just the Prot. canon. And when i was a RC lector (late 70's) some of the readings were in brackets and could be omitted.
Meanwhile the stats i have state:
Only going to Mass will not give one a functional knowledge of Scripture. The average Catholic does not even get to Mass weekly, less alone daily as would be needed to get just 12.7% of the Bible over the two year reading cycle. (http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm)<
: It has been established that historically Rome did not overall encourage Bible literacy among the laity, and can be said to have even hindered it. And until recently little of the Bible was read in Mass, and today this is still not much.
“At mid-century study of Bible texts was not an integral part of the primary or secondary school curriculum. At best, the Bible was conveyed through summaries of the texts.” (The Catholic Study Bible, Oxford University Press, 1990, p. RG16) Even by 1951 just a little of the gospels and the epistles were read on Sundays, with just 0.39% of the Old Testament (aside from the Psalms) being read at Vigils and major feast days in 1951 - http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm)< /p>
Furthermore, evangelicals not only read the Bible more themselves, Catholics coming in about last, but they also are far more likely to attend a Bible study.
Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% - http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/54
Moreover, what also matters is not simply how much Scripture is read, but the basis for determining Truth, and how much Truth is heard that is based upon the Scriptures as the assured word of God.
One can "preach the word" without directly quoting much Scripture, though they normally should, while in cults as in Rome, the "laity" look to the org. as the assuredly faithful interpreters of Scripture, and implicit assent called for, and thus objectively searching the Scripture in order to ascertain the veracity of what is preached, after the manner and means of the noble Bereans, (Acts 17:11) is discouraged.
Now I can make a challenge. You chose someone you think you can trust to go to the local SBC church down the street from here, in which a minister usually reads about an entire chapter of Scripture before the sermon begins, and then preaches for approx. 45 min (the approx. length or an entire Mass) from another book of the Bible, plus about 10 minutes of prayer, plus a midweek Bible study, and then go to the local RC mass, and we will see who gets the most Scripture as well as preaching from it on Sunday. And Wednesday.
And since you said “a Protestant service” then that should qualify. At least FR would get 750.00 (which i certainly do not have, as part of a non-profit work, by God’s grace).
It was the “contrived Catholic polemics” that I think pushed it over the edge- didn’t bother me but I am not the boss.
We can talk post more later cause I’m on a jobsite and don’t want to get hurt or hurt someone plus posting on an iPhone is not good.
AMDG
No problem.
Which is one reason i said it was a contrived Catholic polemic=showing effects of planning or manipulation. All that is needed is one Prot service that hardly reads from the Bible, of which there are plenty, or those who preach for 45 minutes or more on just a few texts, which is quite common, though they may sing also many over the 45 minutes of worship, plus what they read in midweek Bible studies.
The real issue is who reads and hears more of the Bible, those for whom Scripture is supreme or those for whom a church is supreme.
68% of Evangelical Christians attend a regular Bible Study or participate in some other small-group activity. 47% of other Protestants take part in small groups related to their faith, along with 24% of Catholics. ^
Another study found that a growing number of people are attending small Christian groups, with 24.5% of Americans now saying their primary form of spiritual nourishment is meeting with a small group of 20 or less people every week. http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-facts-an-up-close-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html
A Catholic study reported that the percentage of U.S. adult Catholics who say they attended Mass once a week or more (i.e., those attending every week) was 24% in 2012. http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html
Church attendance [2002-2005]: Evangelicals at approx. 60 percent showed the highest percentage of those who reported they attended services weekly or almost weekly, with 30% going more than once a week. Catholics were at 45 percent (9% more than once a week), and Jews 15 percent. Gallup poll. between 2002 and 2005. http://www.christianpost.com/article/20060418/weekly-attendance-highest-among-Evangelical-churches.htm
Only 23% (20% now evangelical) of all Protestants converts from Catholicism said they were unhappy about Catholicism's teachings on abortion/homosexuality (versus 46% of those now unaffiliated); 23% also expressed disagreement with teaching on divorce/remarriage; 16% (12% now evangelical) were dissatisfied with teachings on birth control, 70% said they found a religion the liked more in Protestantism.
55% of evangelical converts from Catholicism cited dissatisfaction with Catholic teachings about the Bible was a reason for leaving Catholicism, with 46% saying the Catholic Church did not view the Bible literally enough.
81% of all Protestant converts from Catholicism said they enjoyed the service and worship of Protestant faith as a reason for joining a Protestant denomination, with 62% of all Protestants and 74% Evangelicals also saying that they felt God's call to do so. ^
From Catholic Answers: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=578988My 13 year old son's friend (a baptist and Great kid) attends a church with incredible youth involvement and activities designed to keep the young people "ALIVE WITH THE FAITH" and IT WORKS!!!! Tons of pressure on my son because our parish is "flatlined" when it comes to youth. As a side note to this, I allowed him to attend one evening program at his friends church and when he came home, he was excited about what he read in the bible and what it meant in his life (he NEVER once had to bring a bible with him to religious ed. nor did they ever read from scripture)
We have 3 Excellent Bible Studies , by Converts from Protestant bible Churches who have 3 types
Having an unbroken line of popes (some being good at using the sword of men to gain their seat, or ecclesiastical ends, and dual tasking in being both celibate in profession and adulterous in practice, or competing with other claimants to the seat of Peter with mutual excommunications, and sanctioning use of torture to deal with suspected heretics, and outlawing religious freedom, and then calling the former intrinsically evil, and the latter as wrong, etc. etc.) to justify elitist claims.
Paul had nothing on Rome.
Does that mean more than one person is using the handle "LurkingSince'98" to post? Or that the post offended someone in your home other than you?
He is referring to the mod , who has had his work cut out for him in this thread (earning the money that LurkingSince'98 donated!)
Indeed. And what would it prove by itself? Most likely the "church" that reads the most Scripture would be the Watchtower disciples (AKA "Jehovah"s Witnesses -" really Judge Rutherford's). The devil knows what the Bible says better than Bible scholars.
What really is pertinent is how much the assured word of Christ - the Scriptures - dwells within them as a result of love for the Truth that it is, as exhorted and exampled in Scripture, in contrast to trusting a magisterium to provide that Truth as being assuredly infallible, which is cultic and Roman Catholic.
The phrase
were initially your own words -- not his.
But way to go, put words in his mouth... as the above exemplifies.
What he did say in reply to your own initial use of that phrase was more complete -- and on point, too
for it is you who has said here on this thread;
It does appear to me that you consistently keep wanting to have things both ways, while also tossing off little holy hand grenade dismissive insult towards "Protestants" in general, all along the way.
Is this the "mind of the church" you keep speaking of? If so, what a mess of a mind.
But the above technique of yours I've flagged here for attention, is demonstrative your own practice of selectively clipping sentences into fragments, extracted from that which others write, which quotation by way of truncation can include implying others said those words as expressed by sentence fragment (rather than their more complete thoughts expressed) forming reply of your own to those fragments, as if those snippets be representative of their "mind", all done while affecting some pretense yourself that you yourself express the "mind of the church".
We could talk about the effect that our respective churches have had on our nation. As evidenced by the current state and direction of our country's politics and morality, the Catholic and Protestant churches have failed to stem the tide of immorality here in America. IMO we can argue all day regarding whose numbers are increasing or decreasing, but none of it matters if cultural rot is still the result. Whoever claims to be the "real" church must accept responsibility for having failed to be salt and light to this nation.
Statistically, I believe that this "real" Christian church has lost ground, and has become too small a minority to sway elections. Those of us who vote according to our faith have become strangers in a foreign land (Exodus 2:22, cf Jeremiah 5:19). IMO until we persuade a significant portion of the hearts and minds of the unbelievers around us to share our ethics and to vote like us, we'll never influence the ballot box again. We'll remain a statistical oddity, "strangers in a foreign land". Our numbers must increase. I don't mean just seats in the pews, but rather by obeying the Great Commission via conversion and discipleship on a large scale.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
-- John 12:32
WHOA!!
I thought 'saints' are in Heaven already??
But making images of these entities prayed to, such as "saints" and/or "Mary", since they are as one with Christ (I do hope they are or will be, that would be wonderful) still is not praying to anyone but God (or so the best of the 'story' for the practices go) because they are at one with Him in communion (again, as best modern-day 'explanation' goes) leaving things to be, that when facing towards images or icon depicting particular persons believed to now be in heaven, naming those particular entities while addressing prayer towards them even by name, is still not making an image of anything that is in heaven (even while it is hoped or believed that those are in heaven) and bowing down to worship those earthly images while prayers are said to them (for they are only being asked to "pray for us", sometimes...when not beseeched for more direct assitance) while they yet be otherwise also said to be one with God --- so regardless, our God is bigger than yours and we can by our own "faith" contradict in practice, admonitions given the Hebrews by God *quite directly* against similar in appearance practices common enough among pagan and 'ancestor' worship cults all over the world, found in the most primitive of cultures, because "our" (or should I say The?) Church ecclesiastical body which we bow obeisance towards as central component to our "faith" (we even recite creed that we "believe in" it along with believing in God) not only tell us that it OK to do as we do, but often enough highly recommend that we do so.
Or in other words; "We ain't breakin' no commandments -- we just be 'veneratin' "
Quite different than Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
Demographics are indeed determining elections, but remember, according to some RCs here, it was the fault of white evangelicals that Romney lost, as only 79% voted for him, and some stayed home, so it was not enough to cover the deficient left by the 59% of white Catholics and 57% of Protestants who voted for Romney. They have to find a way.
Or the present pope, who is not surprisingly opposed by many TRCs.
Well, the word *worship* is so open to debate that some of us prefer to get back to the basics.
Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Now, you can get into a spitting contest all day long about whether they worship Mary or not. They claim they don't even when they do all the actions involved in actual worship. So it really does cut into their credibility when they deny it, but no man knows their heart so you have to take them at their word, even when their own actions belie those very words.
OTOH, the Ten Commandments don't tell us to not worship other gods but do NOT make and image and do NOT BOW DOWN to them.
So semantics aside, the words are up for grabs about whether they are breaking any commandments but their actions aren't.
Those can be clearly and objectively evaluated.
God says not to bow down to images. In the picture Elsie and others have posted, the pope is CLEARLY BOWING DOWN BEFORE an image.
What are your thoughts about him bowing down to Muslim women?
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