Posted on 03/20/2014 9:00:15 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
“Now the LORD had said to Abram: ‘Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed’” (Gen. 12:1–3, all Scripture quotations are from the New King James Version.). The entire remainder of the Bible after these verses can be viewed as an exposition of God’s fulfillment of the promises contained in this remarkable passage. On this point most Bible scholars agree. What is less unanimous among believers is precisely what those verses actually are predicting. Promises, Promises. These verses enumerate certain promises made to Abram (a.k.a. Abraham), and comprise what is usually referred to as the “Abrahamic Covenant.” The promises pertain, primarily, to some unspecified “blessing” that would be received by Abram and distributed to all other families of the earth through him. Furthermore, there would be “blessings” on those who “bless” Abraham, and all the families of earth would be blessed “in” him. In many subsequent passages, we find a virtual repetition of these themes, often with the addition of new details—especially the important fact that these promises do not pertain so much to Abraham alone as to his “seed” (Gen. 12:7; 13:15f; 15:5, 18; 17:7ff; 21:12). Many newer translations, unhelpfully, paraphrase the word “seed” with the more interpretive “descendants.”
(Excerpt) Read more at equip.org ...
"The Abrahamic Covenant is thus nothing other than the Gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. Paul makes this identification explicit: “Foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, [the Scriptures] preached the gospel to Abraham” (Gal. 3:8)."
If anyone would like to bless a Jew, please sent to...
Sorry, but that is only half the story. Study the Inheritance.
>>>If anyone would like to bless a Jew, please sent to...<<<
The best way to bless us is by following the Great Commission.
Philip
>>>Sorry, but that is only half the story. Study the Inheritance.<<<
Help us out. Please show us the other half.
Philip
wow ... didn't expect that statement from you.
Wasn't the Great Commission fulfilled in 70 AD as well? ... especially since you believe the first resurrection, which included the apostles, was in 70 AD?
If they were resurrected in 70 AD, and 'this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world' ... surely you believe the Great Commission was fulfilled in 70 AD as well ...
Or will you be reconsidering your understanding of 'end of the age' in the book of Matthew? (Matt 24.3; Matt 28.20)
You are correct that Paul said the gospel had been preached in all the world (which was the Roman Empire in those days.) Paul said it in several different ways, showing the fulfillment of the prophecy of Matthew 24:14 relating to the destruction of Jerusalem, as well as the fulfillment to preach the gospel to "every creature" as instructed in Mark 16:15. [see Rom 1:8; Rom 10:17-18; Col 1:5-6; and Col 1:23]
But there was never any mention that it should be discontinued after that fulfillment, that I am aware of. Therefore, Paul continued preaching the gospel until Nero beheaded him. Peter and James also continued preaching until they were killed.
Paul also said this:
"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph 3:21 KJV)
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" (Eph 5:25 KJV)
That doesn't sound like a Plan B, or that the Church is going away, does it?
While it is true that most in Israel, and especially the leadership in Jerusalem, rejected Christ; it is also true that the Lord rejected them:
"But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth. Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the Lord hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath. For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." (Jer 7:28-34 KJV)
Not only did the Lord reject Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, but those last two sentences sound a lot like the Lord was speaking of Babylon the Great, doesn't it.
Philip
The blessings or inheritance to the children of Israel - It is a big, big subject, interspersed throughout the Torah - Those blessings are often declaratory, and cannot be subsumed or transferred to any other tribe. Of those blessings, unarguably the promises to Judah ultimately wind up in Yeshua... But there are promises made to ALL the tribes - though primarily to Judah and to Ephraim/Manasseh - One would have to show how those promises, promised to other than Judah, can wind up in Yeshua.
Start with the blessings meted out in Gen 48-49, and note that 49 is prophetic 'for the last days'
So the Parthian Empire doesn't count? What of the Indian subcontinent and all of Asia (which were known)? What of the African coasts (which were known)? What opf the Celtic Barbarians?
You see?
What about Argentina? Bora Bora? LOL!
"All the World", in those days, was the Roman Empire:
"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1 KJV)
"And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar." (Acts 11:28 KJV)
"So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth." (Acts 19:27 KJV)
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8 KJV)
Philip
The promises to Abraham -- all of them -- were inherited by one seed, Christ, exactly as God promised Abraham. Through Christ are all nations blessed.
Forget the Torah. Christ was the fulfillment of the old covenant; and the old covenant (old testament) was superceded by the new covenant (new testament.) Even Moses, in the Torah, warned Israel to listen to Christ:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." (Deu 18:18-19 KJV)
This is that statement as found in the Orthodox Jewish Bible:
"I will raise them up a Navi from among their achim, like unto thee, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him [Yn 10:18]. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not listen unto My words which he shall speak Bishmi (in My Name), I will require it of him." (Deva 18:18-19 OJB)
In the book of Acts, it reads, in context:
"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:20-26 KJV)
Philip
You're skirting the issue ... the 'end of the age' was not before they were killed ... it was in 70 AD.
According to your view, the apostles (who were given the Great Commission) were resurrected at the 'end of the age' ... which you view as 70 AD via Matt 24:3. Since the Great Commission in Matt 28:20 would also continue until the end of the age ... logic dictates the conclusion that the Great Commission was fulfilled by 70 AD as well ... since the 'preaching of the gospel to the whole world' was completed before 70 AD ... when 'the end' of Matt. 24 came.
You either have a glaring inconsistency in your view (highlighted by your call to fulfill the Great Commission) or ... its time to reconsider what 'end of the age' really means in Matthew.
You could probably guess what I would recommend.
This is why I have said that when you interpret Matt 24 completely through the lens of "this generation" ... you will branch out in your consequence tree until it is as wide as possible ... then those consequences need additional foundation for support until the entire eschatological structure stands on a pin ... like a diamond balanced on its point. That point is the date of Revelation as I have said. It all comes down to that ...
If the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD ... your position vaporizes into nothing. That intellectual fulcrum of commitment is too much for anyone to uphold. It requires constant maintenance and the emotional and intellectual energy expended in defending it is better used elsewhere.
You know I am not skirting the issue. You only reason you responded is because you haven't had a chance to call me a name in a day or so.
>>>Since the Great Commission in Matt 28:20 would also continue until the end of the age ... logic dictates the conclusion that the Great Commission was fulfilled by 70 AD as well.<<<
For them it was over, unless you believe like those wackos who believe they never died. You don't believe like them, do you?
>>>>You either have a glaring inconsistency in your view (highlighted by your call to fulfill the Great Commission) or ... its time to reconsider what 'end of the age' really means in Matthew.<<<
I don't expect you to see it. You are convinced you are right. It was for the others reading this thread that I responded in the way I did. Not everyone has been brainwashed with futurism since childhood.
>>>You could probably guess what I would recommend.<<
Of course, you would recommend I spiritualize all the verses in the Gospel where Jesus said he was coming in the generation of his disciples. Sorry, Charlie: I am not that hung up on ideology. The plain words of Christ suit me just fine.
>>>This is why I have said that when you interpret Matt 24 completely through the lens of "this generation" ... you will branch out in your consequence tree until it is as wide as possible ... then those consequences need additional foundation for support until the entire eschatological structure stands on a pin ... like a diamond balanced on its point. That point is the date of Revelation as I have said. It all comes down to that ...<<<
I knew beforehand that is the way you would respond. I should have been named Claire Voyant. LOL!
>>>If the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD ... your position vaporizes into nothing. That intellectual fulcrum of commitment is too much for anyone to uphold. It requires constant maintenance and the emotional and intellectual energy expended in defending it is better used elsewhere.<<<
That is a mighty big if, since you have no proof whatsoever it was written after 70 AD. The same applies to your "our proof is everything happens in the future" eschatology. If the book of the Revelation was written prior to the Jewish/Roman War, your entire eschatology comes crashing down like the house of cards it is built upon. The fact that words and phrases indicating an imminent fulfillment (like "must shortly come to pass," or "the time is a hand") are used about 30 times in the Revelation, leads me to believe the proof tilts heavily in my favour.
And there is so much more in my favour. For example, how again does a futurist explain away the blood of the holy apostles, prophets and the righteous generally, that both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem were responsible for? We have been fresh out of prophets and holy apostles for over 1900 years.
What about the voice of the bridegroom and the bride which remarkably disappears from both cities (who also are called whores?) I guess that (those) is just another in a very long list of coincidences that are easily explained away by calling them, say, "coincidences?" (I assumed you might need some help on that one.)
By the way, who is the Antichrist this week? Futurists have claimed about a "zillion" different Antichrist's since the second or third century. No eschatology comes close to creating false prophecies like futurism. No other eschatology needs to in order to survive.
Philip
>>>You either have a glaring inconsistency in your view (highlighted by your call to fulfill the Great Commission) or ... its time to reconsider what ‘end of the age’ really means in Matthew.<<<
I forgot to mention. The end of the age was not for the Christians, but for the old covenant and Mosaic Law. The new age is the Christian or Church Age, which lasts for ever.
Philip
So if YHWH can forget his promises to Israel, how then are you assured that he will remember his promises to you?
Forget the Torah.
There's your problem right there.
Christ was the fulfillment of the old covenant;
I think you had better ponder what 'fulfillment' means.
[...] and the old covenant (old testament) was superceded by the new covenant (new testament.)
Each and every covenant dovetails into the next - why wouldn't the Messianic covenant do the same? And in fact, it does.
Even Moses, in the Torah, warned Israel to listen to Christ:
Even as Yeshua warned you to listen to Moses.
Perhaps you should research where the Apostles went to define your 'all the world'... Because they certainly went beyond Rome.
>>>So if YHWH can forget his promises to Israel, how then are you assured that he will remember his promises to you?<<<
I am quite certain that if I don’t break any covenants between me and God, he will look favorably on me.
>>>Even as Yeshua warned you to listen to Moses.<<<
I did listen to Moses. He told me to listen to Christ, and I do.
Philip
A little motion in your view there ... but at least with your new definition ... the Great Commission is still active.
Perhaps you should provide your definition of the church age.
1. What is the church age?
2. When did it start?
3. When did the Mosaic age end?
>>>Perhaps you should research where the Apostles went to define your ‘all the world’... Because they certainly went beyond Rome.<<<
I think that is great! That means they covered all the world, and then some.
Philip
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