I don't think God needs to do any splainin'.... the verses are VERY clear.
Just look up the word "predestined".
Posted on 03/20/2014 7:47:22 AM PDT by Gamecock
The only problem I have with Predestination is that, if it’s true, there’s nothing you can do about it.
So what’s the point of preaching about it?
It also amuses me that the issues people really go to war over, will slit throats over, have the most absolutely ferocious certainty about, etc., are things that nobody can possibly have any experience of, or perceive in any way—like “prevenient grace.”
Yes, because God exists outside of time.
“Even God doesn’t know what man will do - until a man decides!”
Where does the Bible say this?
The logic of it is very interesting. If He knows the number of hairs on my head and the world runs according to His plan, then I presume He knows what I will choose and when, even though I myself am free to choose along the way. Seems incorrect to think that He doesn’t know how this will end for each of us.
Maybe this is just really a discussion on the precise definition of predetermination/predestination or whatever.
I’ve not bought into the argument that this can’t be discussed because “if the answer is already known, the weak minded will just give up trying.”
From God's point of view, knowing the beginning from the end, all is predestined.
From humans point of view, all we know are the choices we make.
Was Abrahams almost sacrifice of his son for God or for Abraham? Of course God knew the outcome, but Abraham didn't until he prepared to plunge the knife.
“In effect, out choices trump what God intended or predestined for us.”
Really? We are powerful enough to thwart the will of God?
“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
John 10:27-29
Hezekiah 4:15
I don't think God needs to do any splainin'.... the verses are VERY clear.
Just look up the word "predestined".
wow - lots of old names on that ping list that Ive not seen in years ;)
Think about it logically. It's predestination - do we really have a choice to talk or not talk about it?
I have some idea of the folks who deny the words of the Scripture in favor of their own fabrication of "free will" and self-determination. My response was not a "retort", but an encouragement to go read the Book and notice, predestination is simply the word used to describe the very real feature of God's universe wherein He has written a story and is playing it out in exacting detail. Those details include your destiny, my destiny, and every single individual created by Him. This goes for Esau (whom He decided to hate, before he was born) and Pharaoh (whom He decided to harden, before Moses even went to him, incidentally). So, yes, there are "vessels created for destruction" (Rom. 9).
The cavalier response you and ShadowAce made ignore His enormous control of every molecule, every moment. And, while this may be motivated by a sincere interest in "fairness", that concept is not biblical. God is not unjust, but His activities can be viewed by broken, sinful humans (that is all of us) as not "fair" unless He gives us the "choice" to trust Jesus or not. But, this is not the message of the Scriptures.
Notice, even Paul found that only those "appointed to eternal life believed." This is the effect of predestination. You may call to anyone and everyone. Many may respond (as in a "revival" meeting or a "crusade"), but only those whom Jesus "knows" (notice, not those who know Jesus) are going to be raised up on that day (John 6). Just trying to get the truth out there...but if it does not sink in, even that is managed by God.
Why don't you look up predestination in your Bible and then get back to me.
Lot of folks are in the FR outer darkness. A few have been called home. Several have moved on and no longer participate on FR. May are still on FR but don't visit the Religion Ghetto.
Ahhh, but those were the good old days!
Theology is what I sometimes call an "armchair sport". It's a academic debate between gentlemen, engaged in while smoking cigars, sitting in high-backed chairs and surrounded by old books. For me, the thinking and the debate itself is the sport. Theology exercises and disciplines the intellect, with the intended goal of "taking every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5).
Me? I'm a big proponent of predestination myself. And I don't advocate for just any old predestination. I'll argue for super-secret double-probation superlapsarian predestination. God's active predestination of our lives is why I am able to "give thanks in all things" (1 Thess 5:18), because "for those who love God all things work together for good" (Rom 8:28).
The problem, as our free-will and Arminian friends will rightly point out, is that right theology not worked through can sometimes lead to wrong behavior. The topic of predestination is about what God does "behind the curtain". The topic IMO does not, and should not bleed over into an excuse for Christians to evangelize less (or not at all) contrary to what our Lord has already commanded in scripture.
I'm glad to discuss predestination with anyone willing to don the requisite smoking jacket, to pour their favorite libation, and to join me in the library to engage in the manly sport of theology. IMO theology is important. And when we leave that room and go out into the world, we should leave the debating back in the library, and (I hope) our common obedience to God, and affection for each other, should look the same to a watching world.
“Theology is the queen of the sciences and all other disciplines are her handmaidens.”
― R. C. Sproul“He that has doctrinal knowledge and speculation only, without affection, never is engaged in the business of religion.”
― Jonathan Edwards
So tell me, all predestination questions aside, do you think God appreciates the insulting tone you use when delivering his truth?
Think about it logically. It's predestination - do we really have a choice to talk or not talk about it?
*** And that totally misrepresents what the Bible says about predestination.
Why don't you look up predestination in your Bible and then get back to me.
________________________
Lighten up, Frances.
I fully understand the concept of God being capable of knowing in advance the entirety of series of results of the nearly infinite choices each individual makes every day. In theory, every aspect of free will is predestined.
Grow a sense of humor, OK? You've got to admit my observation was funny!
God’s will is that we choose:
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
The plan (predestination) is that we be in fellowship with God.
Ephesians 4-7:
4) For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5) he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6) to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7) In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
But we can also choose to not live according to God’s will and thus separate ourselves from God.
In that one verse the truth is pretty hard to miss.
No, I don't believe that my insulting tone was His preference (although I understand that He managed this into my life, yet He remains innocent of my sin). I recognize that I should have delivered His truth in a gentle and informative manner, without snarkiness. Will you forgive me, please?
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