Posted on 03/15/2014 9:09:49 AM PDT by dartuser
While it is true that the millennium (that is, one thousand years) is found only in Revelation 20, the belief in the Messianic Kingdom does not rest on this passage alone. In fact, it hardly rests on it at all. The basis for the belief in the Messianic Kingdom is twofold.
First: there are the unfulfilled promises of the Jewish covenants, promises that can only be fulfilled in a Messianic Kingdom.
Second: there are the unfulfilled prophecies of the Jewish prophets. There are numerous prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of the coming of the Messiah Who will reign on David's Throne, and rule over a peaceful Kingdom. There is a great amount of material in the Old Testament on the Messianic Kingdom, and the belief in a Messianic Kingdom rests on the basis of a literal interpretation of this massive material.
(Excerpt) Read more at pre-trib.org ...
Jesus is ruling on David’s throne. Jesus was a direct descendant of David. He was a rightful heir to the throne. He is now sitting on the throne in Heaven.
The promises to the Jews were fulfilled.
sweet in its thoroughness. Thanks! Thinking about His reign is my place of peace.
He is currently sitting on the Fathers throne ... not the throne of David.
Rev. 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
δώσω - I will grant - future active indicative
ἐνίκησα - I conquered - aorist active indicative
ἐκάθισα - I sat - aorist active indicative
Jesus conquered and then sat down on His father's throne ... where He is today. The fact that Jesus Himself said that these two thrones are distinct is why He is not sitting on David's throne now. Since He is not sitting on David's throne now, He cannot be ruling in the Davidic sense.
Spiritualize it all you want with the kingdom in the heart concept ... but the text says there are two thrones, one present ... the Fathers throne ... one future ... His throne.
Luke 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David"
How was the land promise fulfilled?
Ever heard of the Kingdom of Israel? David? Solomon?
They descendants of Abraham saw the promise fulfilled. Those descendants chose to stop following God. God gave reprieve after reprieve. He finally let them go, preserving a remnant through Babylonian captivity to fulfill the promise of the Messiah.
The Messiah did not come to restore the physical Kingdom. Jesus told them that His kingdom was not of this world.
>>>Jesus is ruling on David’s throne. Jesus was a direct descendant of David. He was a rightful heir to the throne. He is now sitting on the throne in Heaven. The promises to the Jews were fulfilled.<<<
You are absolutely correct. Jesus received all old testament covenants to himself as the covenant seed of Abraham and David.
Philip
It was fulfilled under David and Solomon: even before. Their kingdom covered all the areas that God promised Abram, as follows:
"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." (Gen 15:18-21 KJV)
The ten Canaanite tribes are listed above: the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaim, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites. The only other boundaries in consideration were from the great river Euphrates to the river of Egypt, which David and Solomon controlled:
"David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates." (2 Sam 8:3 KJV)
"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river [Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." (1 Kin 4:21 KJV)
Joshua confirmed that Israel possessed all the land God promised Abraham, even in his day:
"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Jos 21:43-45 KJV)
"And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof." (Jos 23:14 KJV)
Nehemiah also confirmed that Israel received everything the Lord promised:
"And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:" (Neh 9:8 KJV)
"Moreover thou gavest them kingdoms and nations, and didst divide them into corners: so they possessed the land of Sihon, and the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan. Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would." (Neh 9:22-24 KJV)
But there was this condition to the covenant:
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Num 33:51-53 KJV)
"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." (Num 33:55-56 KJV)
"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deu 8:19-20 KJV)
Israel broke that conditional covenant, and the rest is history: well, except to those attempting to rewrite history.
Philip
Thanks...will read the full article tomorrow.
Hard to post a thread, dartuser, without this space cadet from another planet, planet Preterist, trying to poison it. He believes the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and the 1st resurrection (Rev. 20) took place in 70AD...and as if that wasn’t spaced out enough, he’s not sure whether he is a Full Preterist Amillennialist or a Full Preterist Postmillennialist.
>>>Hard to post a thread, dartuser, without this space cadet from another planet, planet Preterist, trying to poison it.<<<
If you have a problem with the scripture I post, please explain why, if you can. But the asperions you cast, in vain attempts to poison my interpretions, are noted.
Philip
Thanks will finish the article tomorrow. Good to see some scholarly works posted on prophecy. A bit lacking in this forum.
“It is the extensive prophetic writings, as well as all of these covenants, that provide the basis for the belief in a future Messianic Kingdom, and not merely one chapter of a highly symbolic book. Unless they are understood literally, they lose all meaning in the context in which they are found. To allegorize such a vast amount of material is to render a major part of the Bible meaningless.”
Meaningless is exactly what happens for those who twist scripture and prophesy to mean something they don’t.
We could debate whether the nation of Israel ever possessed the land boundaries stipulated in Genesis 15. But that is not the most fruitful place to debate. You see, there is a bigger problem if you hold that the kingdoms mentioned fulfilled the land promises in the Abrahamic covenant.
Gen. 13:15 ... for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.
The Lord God said that Abraham HIMSELF ... as well as his descendants would possess the land. Recall that Joshua went into the promised land some 400+ years after Abraham was dead.
If the Lord promised the land to Abraham himself, and he died before any of the land was possessed, then the fulfillment of this promise is still future. Then on top of that there is the 'forever' aspect of the promise. The Jews do not currently possess this land ... therefore, what they had before, whether you believe it was all of it or not, they did not possess forever ... therefore the promise is yet to be fulfilled.
You also have two major issues ... and a third of your own construction.
1. Abraham HIMSELF was also to possess the land ... that didn't happen for him, he was dead long before all the events that you highlight happened ... so the fulfillment of this covenant is still future. From my perspective, it awaits the resurrection of Abraham (sorry, it wasn't in 70 AD) in the Millennial kingdom of Christ.
2. They were to possess the land forever. Since they don't possess it today ... that forever possession has not started yet ... therefore whatever parts in the past they had ... did not fulfill the promise ... and it's still future.
Perhaps your biggest error is that you have taken a strictly unconditional covenant (Abrahamic covenant) made 400+ years before Joshua ... and tied it to commands to rid the land of pagans ... and have concluded that a modification of the Abrahamic covenant stipulations must have occurred.
Personally ... if you can provide even 1% of a cogent explanation for even the first item, I'll be impressed.
Why will I be impressed? Because you have taken the time to lay out a nice case for the LITERAL fulfillment (I'm proud of you for this) and yet when it comes to Abraham HIMSELF possessing the land ... and the eternal nature of that possession ... there will no doubt come various allegory, typology, or some other non-literal understanding that you must assign to handle this part of the promise.
The first facet of Israel's final restoration is the national regeneration of Israel. The timing of this regeneration has already been discussed in Chapter 14, The Campaign of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah. This section is concerned with the development of that motif. The basis of Israel's final regeneration is the New Covenant, in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
The announcement of the New Covenant begins with a declaration that it will be a Jewish covenant, for it will be made with both houses of Israel (v. 31). It will be in sharp contradistinction with the older Mosaic Covenant (v. 32). Of the five Jewish covenants, the Mosaic was the only conditional one. Although God had been faithful in keeping His terms of the covenant, Israel had not been so faithful, resulting in the Mosaic Covenant's being broken. For while the Mosaic Covenant showed the standard of righteousness which the Law demanded, it could never impart to the Jew the power to keep it. But that problem will be rectified in the New Covenant (v. 33) through regeneration, which will provide the internal power necessary to meet and to keep the righteous standards of God. The result of the New Covenant will be a total national regeneration of Israel (v. 34).
Very good laydown of Jeremiah 31 above. Just for reference here are the mentioned verses:
Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
>>>1. Abraham HIMSELF was also to possess the land ... that didn't happen for him, he was dead long before all the events that you highlight happened ... so the fulfillment of this covenant is still future. From my perspective, it awaits the resurrection of Abraham (sorry, it wasn't in 70 AD) in the Millennial kingdom of Christ.<<<
Since you did not post any scriptural references to explain yourself; I am going to simply show that the following were the promises to Abraham, preceded by the conditions:
"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." (Gen 17:9 KJV)
That is brutally honest. These are the covenants:
"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed (singular) have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." (Gen 15:18-21 KJV)
"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Gen 22:17-18 KJV)
God kept his promises! All promises went to his seed, as in a single seed, named Jesus Christ; and in him all nations are blessed, as follows:
"Now to Abraham and his seed [singular] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)
Let's get rid of all words but the actual fulfillment of the promise:
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made: to one seed Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)
That was simple enough. Now, since all the promises were made to Christ, he owns all the land that was promised to Abraham. Since it is His land, he can do as he pleases with it. He can choose to live there, in the flesh (He is God, after all;) or He can choose to live in new Jerusalem in heaven. From all I have read, He chose to live in new Jerusalem, and he made Christians his heirs:
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)
Why was the promise not given to the other children of Israel, besides Christ? Maybe because they were self-serving isolationists through which at least one of the promises to Abraham could not be fulfilled, namely this one:
"… in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed…" (Gen 22:18 KJV)
>>>2. They were to possess the land forever. Since they don't possess it today ... that forever possession has not started yet ... therefore whatever parts in the past they had ... did not fulfill the promise ... and it's still future.<<<
As aforementioned, Abraham's seed, Christ, owns the land, forever. The promises were fulfilled. The old covenant is through: finished! Christ fulfilled the old covenants: all of them.
>>>Perhaps your biggest error is that you have taken a strictly unconditional covenant (Abrahamic covenant) made 400+ years before Joshua ... and tied it to commands to rid the land of pagans ... and have concluded that a modification of the Abrahamic covenant stipulations must have occurred.<<<
I simply quoted the scripture. I didn't bother quoting the scriptures I quoted above: that Christ inherited all the land as the seed of the promise; because the other scriptures I quoted showed the land promise was conditional, and the conditions were broken by the children of Israel.
Do not the new testament scriptures state, many times over, that God is no respecter of persons? Why should Israel be treated more favourably than the Gentiles? They broke the covenants, not God. And did Christ not break down the middle wall of the partition between us?
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us" (Eph 2:14 KJV)
I appreciate you thinking so highly of me; but I can assure you there is nothing special about me, or any of my blood relatives. In fact, according to Paul, we are all one blood:
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:24-26 KJV)
Let's assume you are correct in your assessments. If we are all of one blood, which the Holy Ghost clearly states we are: then who gets the land?
>>>Personally ... if you can provide even 1% of a cogent explanation for even the first item, I'll be impressed. Why will I be impressed? Because you have taken the time to lay out a nice case for the LITERAL fulfillment (I'm proud of you for this) and yet when it comes to Abraham HIMSELF possessing the land ... and the eternal nature of that possession ... there will no doubt come various allegory, typology, or some other non-literal understanding that you must assign to handle this part of the promise.<<<
Since you did not post any scripture to support your claim, I don't know how to respond, except to quote the new testament:
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)
Are you saying that Christians are not heirs to the promise? That seems contradictory. Maybe you can explain to us why it is not contradictory.
Even if what you claim is supported by some means of interpretation; why do you think Abraham might want to possess the land? Did he not look for a better country?
"Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Heb 11:12-16 KJV)
If you are going to make declarations that others are in error, you should at least have the courtesy to post scriptures supporting your declarations. Why should anyone consider your opinion as fact? I certainly do not. You have given me no reason to.
Philip
From the linked article:
The second covenant is the Palestinian Covenant, or Land Covenant, that spoke of a worldwide regathering of the Jews and repossession of the Land following their dispersion. While the dispersion has already occurred and is in effect today, the regathering and repossession of the Land still awaits fulfillment in the future. This, too, requires a future Kingdom.
The Davidic Covenant is the third covenant, and it promised four eternal things: an eternal house (dynasty), an eternal throne, an eternal kingdom, and one eternal Person. The Dynasty became eternal because it culminated in a Person Who is Himself eternal: Jesus the Messiah. For that reason the Throne and Kingdom will be eternal as well. But Jesus has never yet sat on the Throne of David ruling over a Kingdom of Israel. The reestablishment of the Davidic Throne and Messiah's rule over the Kingdom still awaits a future fulfillment. It requires a future kingdom.
The last of these covenants is the New Covenant, which spoke of the national regeneration and salvation of Israel, encompassing each individual Jewish member of that nation. This, too, awaits its final fulfillment and requires a future kingdom.
Those who imagine these have already been fulfilled will have to somehow explain why the above ETERNAL, UNCONDITIONAL covenants have not happened yet.
What I find baffling is how Preterists can imagine this unconditional promise of God was somehow already fulfilled. It CAN'T have been for the simple reason that there are STILL unbelieving Jews in the world. Israel, as a nation, has not accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still beset by enemies on all sides, plotting to wipe them from the face of the earth and drive them into the sea. If this had all been fulfilled through the "church", then they must explain why the "church" is still attacked and beset by enemies at every chance.
AND...the last time I checked, lions and tigers still ate the flesh of other animals. My two lil' tiggers would starve to death if I put them on a vegetarian diet. ;o)
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