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To: PhilipFreneau
OK, time to weight in.
So, it should be apparent that Christ reigns forever from his throne in heaven. But what is the disposition of those resurrected during the first resurrection? Paul explains it this way:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:16-18 KJV)

According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth.

I've been in and out for a while, not paying a great deal of attention. Your position, if I understand it correctly, is that "the first resurrection" was a physical resurrection at 70AD (more or less).

I find this "quirky" for several reasons.

  1. What Paul speaks of is a resurrection of the dead in Christ, followed immediately by a catching up of the living. The first might go unnoticed, but no one noticed the second? Unlikely. And how does the church continue?
  2. It makes the same kind of division I have seen from the dispensationalists. Two sets of Christians (first and second resurrection), with different fates, and thus different promises. They may be OK with that. I am not.
  3. Paul doesn't say those of the first resurrection aren't coming back to earth. What he does say, elsewhere, is that we are now while we are living out or lives in this age we are also "seated in heavenly places". Which I think is also the sense we see in Rev. 20.

I'll point you to a couple articles I have found helpful: The First Resurrection and The Covenant of the Seventieth Week, both by the late Meredith Kline.

In the first the author examines the interaction and parallelism of the first and second deaths and resurrections in Rev. 20. The second examines the structure of history laid down in Daniel's seventy sevens prophecy.

They're not long or especially difficult, and are worth your time to work through.

74 posted on 03/15/2014 10:00:57 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (I beat wasp nests with a stick for fun.)
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To: Lee N. Field
>>>What Paul speaks of is a resurrection of the dead in Christ, followed immediately by a catching up of the living. The first might go unnoticed, but no one noticed the second? Unlikely. And how does the church continue?<<<

We do know that it occurred during a major war in which over one million Jews were killed or starved to death. All we have to go on is what Christ said to his disciples, and later words from his apostles. This was Christ:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Mat 24:30-31 KJV)

We could pretend it didn't happen because "no one saw it," or worse, "because it doesn't fit my doctrine." But the fact remains, Jesus said it would happen in that generation, in many different ways, and he never wavered.


>>>It makes the same kind of division I have seen from the dispensationalists. Two sets of Christians (first and second resurrection), with different fates, and thus different promises. They may be OK with that. I am not.<<<

If I understand Meredith Kline correctly, he believed the last half-week of the seventy weeks encompasses the entire "church age"? He is a little hard to follow: but if that is what he is saying, I am not buying it. That is little more than a modified dispensational Gap-theory. He does present a rather complex, but seemingly reasonable case for both Daniel's seventy weeks, and the two resurrections: but I simply do not see them being that complicated. For example, Paul indicates the so-called "church age" is forever:

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph 3:21 KJV)

And we have these:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15 KJV)

"For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Pet 1:11 KJV)

So, Christ reigns forever, and the Church is forever. No need to complicate things.


Regarding Daniel's seventy weeks, I see the "seventy weeks" as the proverbial "final nail in the coffin" of the old covenant; and I see it lasting exactly 70 "weeks," or 490 years, as decreed. That may seem overly simplified in these days of wide-scale elaboration; but it all fits. I see Christ confirming the OLD covenant for one week: one-half week in person, and another half-week by his disciples (John 13:20.)

Recall that Christ was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat 15:24,) as were his disciples (Mat 10:6) until much later in Acts 10. Also recall the apostles' conversations in first part of the Acts: in particular, there was the case where Peter confirmed that Christ was the fulfillment of the covenant, and through him all nations would be blessed, beginning with the believers in Jerusalem. Until Christ, there was no way Abraham's covenant could be fulfilled because of the "isolationist" nature of the Jews. This was Peter:

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26 KJV)

Later, the tents of David were raised, and the Gentiles were brought in (Acts 10, 15:14-17,) which I believe marked the end of the old covenant. All that remained was the clean up, which was finalized in 70 AD. The first resurrection was a part of that "cleanup," if you will. Daniel wrote about the first resurrection in this manner:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

Note the first resurrection was only for Daniel's people (Israel); and not for all of them, but "many." That implies a partial resurrection of the children of Israel, which is confirmed by our knowledge that some were "left behind" (as odd as that seems.)


I really don't know what to think about the second resurrection. There is not a lot written about it. When I put everything on the table, including a critical analysis of "external" factors, such as the statement in Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalms 104:5, I am drawn toward the belief of many old-timers that when they died they were going to stand before the judgement seat, and hopefully go to heaven, and maybe to hell. LOL! One thing I refuse to do is exclude plain-language in the scripture just because I don't happen to like it. This much we know:

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." (Ecc 1:4 KJV)

Which is confirmed, in a sense, in Revelation 22:

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:2 KJV)

And we know this:

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." (Isa 45:23 KJV)

"… for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:10-12 KJV)

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:11-15 KJV)

I have not written this before, because I am still unsure; but the most logical path seems to be as follows:

1) after the defeat of Satan, the dead (only those who actually died and are asleep in their graves) are resurrected and judged (see Rev 20:11-15, above.)

2) afterward, as each person dies, they are judged individually.

That is the only way I can think of, at this time, where all the scripture fits.

Philip

95 posted on 03/15/2014 1:52:37 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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