Posted on 02/22/2014 11:57:28 AM PST by NYer
Church offices are different than church employees.
Are you admitting that Archbishops are not Biblical Church offices ordained by God and have no authority over actual office holders?
How fortunate! Please post a follow up tomorrow after the con-celebratory mass.
So is Kasper.
LOL! Some people just get offended at the slightest thing, don’t they?
Cardinals are not among those Biblical essentials. You could have church without Cardinals. They are essentially bishops who hold titular churches in Rome, so they can participate in papal elections. Similar to the Pope, who is essentially the Bishop of Rome.
But actually, popes could be chosen by drawing straws or throwing dice, i.e. casting lots.
Now there's an interesting thing: that is a solidly Biblical way to make a decision, and my church doesn't do it! Does yours?
Choosing King Saul: See 1 Sam. 10:20-24. (And although less obvious, see also 1 Sam. 16:7-12 about David).
Making Difficult Decision: "Casting lots causes contentions to cease, and keeps the mighty apart." Prov. 18:18
Priest’s Order of Service: "Thus they were divided by lot, one group as another, for there were officials of the sanctuary and officials of the house of God..." 1 Chron. 24:5-19. Thus priestly families who lived in the Galilee did not have to argue about who would have to travel to Jerusalem in the cold of winter or in the heat of summer. And 1,000 years later, the priests were still casting lots, for...
Zacharias in the Temple: "according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot fell to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord." Luke 1:9
Making Governmental Decisions: After the rebuilding of the wall, to repopulate their capital city, the Israelites “cast lots to bring one out of ten to dwell in Jerusalem…” Neh. 11:1
To Establish Apostolic Succession: "And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26. This is how God's chosen leadership group was provided with successors. A key moment in the history of the Catholic Church: apostolic succession.
And on and on. Lots of Biblical examples. But most churches don't cast lots these days.
And some don't even have Apostolic Succession.
THe ones that do, though, have an unbroken link of authority going back to the NT, and conveyed by another Biblical action: the laying of hands.
Writing about AD 94, Clement of Rome states that the apostles appointed successors to continue their work where they had planted churches and for these in their turn to do the same because they foresaw the risk of discord. He uses both ‘bishop’ and ‘presbyter’ to refer to these men. He supports an approved continuation of the apostolic ministry which in its turn was derived from Christ. And Clement wrote this before the death of the last Apostle.
“Actually, here is the list of heirarchical offices specified in the NT:
deacons
priests
bishops
popes.
Deacons and Elders are Biblical offices. No bishops (same as elders) or priests (all Christians are a priesthood). To this, you could add Apostles, who were the foundation of the Church.
“Cardinals are not among those Biblical essentials.”
It’s what I said. I agree.
“But actually, popes could be chosen by drawing straws or throwing dice, i.e. casting lots.”
Since it isn’t a Biblical office, no need to choose them.
“Now there’s an interesting thing: that is a solidly Biblical way to make a decision, and my church doesn’t do it! Does yours? “
As it turns out, we do not recognize the office of Pope. I do know that the Amish have a similar process... They line up ever qualified male, put an equal number of hymnals at the front of the church, one has a bible verse inside on a piece of paper, and each male goes to the front and chooses one hymnal. Whoever gets the hymnal with the verse is pastor for life! It is a huge commitment to fulfill and is in addition to earning a living the regular way on the farm. I’ve heard from a former Amish man that families cry when their man is selected...
It is natural that the Apostles should choose successors to continue on when a vacuum was created... but the successors were not in any way (in Scripture) identified as Apostles. They were successors.
“THe ones that do, though, have an unbroken link of authority going back to the NT, and conveyed by another Biblical action: the laying of hands. “
Actually, a close read of history reveals that this is a great story - clean and accepted by the masses, but not true.
OOH! A contest I love contests!
We could do it like Double Jeopardy:
Rev. Dr. X: "I'll take dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism for $1,000."
Pope BXVI: "(heh heh) I'll take Power of the Keys for $2000, Alex!"
That’s casting lots. I am glad to hear that they do it. Sincerely.
Excellent retort, Mrs. Don-O
Made LOL.
Right!! And that's actually the Catholic history. We don't call these men "Apostles," we call them "successors of the apostles." With the Biblical title "episcopoi," Bishops. Or you could all them overseers or supervisors, same thing.
What they're called and the exact scope of their authority and their relations with each other, is (in some ways) changeable because the needs of the Church are (in some ways) changeable. The Bishops are there to serve, period. To be shepherds, as Jesus appointed Peter the Shepherd who feeds both the lambs and the sheep--- and who strengthens his brethren.
What's important is just what you said: that it's natural for the Apostles' Church to develop more administrative structure for teaching, governing, and sanctifying, growing from the embryonic organization you can already seen developing in the Acts and in the Epistles.
Me too!
Nice!
You're right.
I'm trying to acquire all of his books....
God bless him.
Ah yes, thanks so much, dearesr vox_freedom.
I have a lovely photo of him right at eye level next to my computer, which always reminds me to pray.
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