Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
He who would understand the prophets had better begin with Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, where he will find that the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, and the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of all prophecy, the very last phase of God’s redemptive work on earth.
He will discover in Galatians who the true Israel is, to whom the promises are made and that there is no other Israel, and no further fulfillment of prophecy.
The problem of the Galatian believers was the conspiracy to impose upon them Jewish interpretations of prophecy, and to claim over them a Jewish priority or privilege. Paul repulses this conspiracy with unparalleled severity...
(Excerpt) Read more at graceonlinelibrary.org ...
A most astute post. Indeed one would have to stuff 7 years worth of woes in a two year bag to make 70 AD be the tell all. Not to mention more Jews and Romans died in the AD 132 rebellion.
The external evidence as you pointed out would have to be ignored as well. John would need to be exiled on Patmos around 62 AD and back and circulating Revelation no later than 65 AD for it to be prophecy.
I also notice these threads end up being more about Darby and how wrong he was and how wrong dispensationalism is. The prederist presentation is about “proving” others wrong without presenting an independent theory standing on its own internal and external evidence.
When you eliminate a literal physical Israel from prophecy fulfillment there are a lot of holes to fill. A convenient way for replacement theology to do so is to pronounce said prophecies already fulfilled. It is a tidy operation.
I will state I am not a “rabid” dispensationalist.” There are theories within dispensationalism which have thin internal evidence but make the most sense Biblically at the macro level. I guess if someone had to pin me down the best I could offer is I am a futurist who believes in a literal 7 year tribulation and after the second coming of Christ a literal 1,000 year physical reign of Christ on earth. I guess that makes me pre-millennial in my thinking and literal futurist.
ROFLOL! Ah yes, old Rood’s dream!! That was supposed to happen back in 2001 or something according to Rood wasn’t it? LOL Rood and Joseph Smith both like their dreams right?
Of course. The Preterist view, whether partial or full, has so many holes in it they can’t stand up to history. They have to allegorize much of scripture which most often gets them in opposition to other scripture which they then have to ignore or allegorize again.
Your posts, views and sources are at the least partial prederist. Post millennials focus on the allegory or historicism of prophecies. Your presentation is a mixed bag of literal when it suits with symbolism and allegory filling in the blanks when a literal interpretation does not fit. Resulting in a convoluted shifting hermeneutic.
Your posts, views and sources are at the least partial prederist. Post millennials focus on the allegory or historicism of prophecies. Your presentation is a mixed bag of literal when it suits with symbolism and allegory filling in the blanks when a literal interpretation does not fit. Resulting in a convoluted shifting hermeneutic.
>> “That was supposed to happen back in 2001 or something according to Rood wasn’t it?” <<
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No, just your way of attempting to turn someone’s conjecture of a possible outcome into a definite prediction.
Typical CB reply - boring at this juncture.
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A good example of the shifting sands of your hermeneutic. I am sure you see Revelation 19 as symbol or allegory. It has to be in your model. If not then things should be so much better these days:
Revelation 19:11-21 KJV
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
When you do so within an ecumenical framework it is actually poor manners.
Wow a dash of logic used on the pages of FR. Nicely done.
No dispensationalism does not assert there are separate paths of salvation. You might find some hypers assert that but the majority clearly see saved by Grace through faith for all times.
The belief involves an unfulfilled unconditional Promise to Israel for God’s Glory. All promises are through the seed of Abraham and fulfilled through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.
Whoops did not know about the modalism.
How do you know he did not use symbolic language? How do you know the Jerusalem in the old land of Palestine is the same Jerusalem referred to in this passage from Isaiah?
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." (Isa 2:2-3 KJV)
Could that not be referring to this Sion and Jerusalem?
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)
>>>The two witnesses display God’s full judgment power, there is no antecedent event yet noted in history that shows two men so reviled by all in the Earth that they rejoice, giving presents to each other when the witnesses are killed. That is not symbolic use of language the revelator uses in describing that event but rather a “dragnet style” just the facts madam account of a future event.<<<
The following passage by Josephus sounds an awful lot like one of those prophets, who just so happened to "prophecy" for about 3 1/2 years after the war began (seven years, five months total.) Of course it would also depend on one's definition of being "clothed in sackcloth." He was killed by the Roman Army (the armies of Nero, the "beast".) He also tormented those in the city with his incessant rant.
"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple,began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!"This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, wherehe was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" . . . Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for ashe was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost."[Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3]
>>>No but God rained fire and Brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah. There are “black and white” stone cold realities that Revelation says God will perform.<<<
God also rained "hail" stones on Jerusalem, in the form of 100 pound white stones launched from the Roman Army catapults. This is Josephus:
"The [catapult] engines, that all the [Roman] legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs [1/4 mile] and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." [Wars of the Jews, V.6.3]
This is the similar passage from the Revelation:
"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." (Revelation 16:21)
>>>Now you can still try to poo poo my assertions but I suspect that you have a personal issue simply accepting the prophesied issues as laid down in bold black and white. Revelation has some strong scary things to say about the future on men upon the earth and one’s first reaction is to try to bury Revealation’s stark prophecy under a lot of preterist fluff about symbolic metaphors and snarky commentaries about contemporary emperors that existed at the time of John. I get it...God’s judgment will be fierce...what man could stand before it!<<<
It is not personal. I simply read the Bible for most of my adult life, and that is what I came up with. I did have a different study environment than most in that I had no real outside influence, such as concordances, Scofield notes, church doctrines, etc., that might tend to bias my interpretations. For example, if someone had convinced me early on that Jesus meant "that generation" when he said "this generation," or if "must shortly come to pass," or "the time is at hand" meant 2000 years, I may have interpreted the scripture differently.
Philip
I agree that all promises were fulfilled in the single seed of Christ:
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)
There was nothing unfulfilled. Besides, Israel broke the land covenant with God. Recall this:
"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." (Num 33:55-56 KJV)
God said he would do unto Israel what he thought to do unto the nations they failed to drive out. In this passage God explains what he thought to do unto those nations, which was to destroy them:
"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deu 8:19-20 KJV)
The only "land covenant" remaining was the land promised to Abraham, which is heavenly (Heb 11:12-16.)
Philip
>>>Has Israel been subject to thermonuclear attack yet?<<<
Lol! What makes you think that will happen? John Hagee?
>>>Zechariah’s “flying roll with an evil fire in a lead epah” is clearly predicting that event.<<<
Clearly, huh? LOL!
>>>“All things which are written” are vastly short of fulfillment, both old and new testament.<<<
I don’t see any scripture supporting your position; only didactic proclamations.
>>>Have the bride of Yeshua been resurrected yet? Have the events of Yehova’s wrath upon “those that took the mark” taken place? - hardly!<<<
I don’t know anyone by those names.
Philip
>>>Your posts, views and sources are at the least partial prederist. Post millennials focus on the allegory or historicism of prophecies.<<<
Show me.
>>>Your presentation is a mixed bag of literal when it suits with symbolism and allegory filling in the blanks when a literal interpretation does not fit. Resulting in a convoluted shifting hermeneutic.<<<
Is that not the way all interpretation of the scripture occurs? Do you think Scofield did not use figurative interpretation when it suited him?
In any case, I welcome more than just your opinion. Please show me the error of my ways from the scripture. I will be forever grateful.
Philip
>>>Revelation 19:11-21 KJV<<<
What was your point again in posting all that scripture? If you have some comments it would be appreciated.
Philip
>>>When you do so within an ecumenical framework it is actually poor manners.<<<
I guess I did not fully understand the significance of an ecumenical thread. Have you about finished beating this dead horse?
>> “I don’t know anyone by those names” <<
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At least you took your mask off!
So much for this thread.
If those prophecies aren't literal, why did God waste all that ink???
You say that say prophecies aren't literal and those scriptures that are have already happened...So if that is true, where in the world are we at now??? This sure ain't heaven...
It turns out the "Lord riding upon a swift cloud" was the Assyrian Army. LOL!
This is a perfect example of where we disagree. I would encourage everyone to read and focus upon Is 19 for the moment.
I understand what you are getting at Phillip, but can you defend your position with a synopsis of how Is 19 is fulfilled by the Assyrians?
major points particularly:
- When was it that the Nile was turned - It seems self-evident that the passage is talking of the Nile, as the Nile is 'the' river of Egypt.
- When was it that Egypt quaked in fear at the name of the House of Judah?
- When was it that Egypt and Assyria turned to YHWH and especially when was this time of peace wherein YHWH called Judah in the middle of Assyria and Egypt, when all three are called 'My People'?
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