Posted on 02/22/2014 10:53:16 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
You should be...you should be...(in Yoda's voice)
The Beast, named Nero, was torturing and murdering Christians at an alarming rate until he committed suicide in '68. The "Beast" in general was not a single man, but was represented by a series of kings:
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." (Rev 17:10-11 KJV)
It is not a "remarkable coincidence" that Nero was the sixth "king" or Caesar in the series at the time John wrote the book. Nero's reign began in '54; and his reign of terror began about '64, during which time he is credited with having Paul and Peter killed.
There were no greater witnesses to Christ than Peter and Paul. The only reason I have so far discounted them as the "two witnesses" of the Revelation is because of where they were killed: supposedly Rome, vs where the two witnesses were supposedly killed: Jerusalem:
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth ... And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:3, 7-8 KJV)
Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem. I could have misinterpreted this location, or it may have been written in reference a spiritual location, comparing, in all three instances, death by Roman soldiers; but attributing their deaths, in all cases, to the Jews. Jesus did say the blood of all the prophets would be on the heads of the Jews, as was the blood of all the prophets on the head of "Babylon the Great," the term John used for Jerusalem.
One other point: The Caesar that replaced Nero, named Galba, "continued a short space," exactly as written. He reigned only seven months before being murdered.
The most important point!!! The Jews were also torturing and murdering Christians. The Jewish armies were those "fighting against the Lord." The Roman armies were the "good guys," in this case. Even Josephus surmised that God had sent the Roman Armies in Judgement against that evil generation of Jews, and he was a Jewish Priest! If he could see it, why not you?
Philip
So either Revelation 19 is Christ Jesus delivering His people or ensuring their destruction. But neither fit your explanation at all. No where do we have any indication Rome and the beast are the "good guys."
>>>You should be...you should be...(in Yoda’s voice)<<<
You certainly have that Snarky act down pat. LOL!
You have enough concern for both of us.
Actually I am more concerned Pastor Otis is using 19th Century Revisionist Rationalist liberal scholars for his eschatology studies. He should know better than that.
I am ...
Josephus was an Orthodox Jewish Priest, Historian, and Jewish General who was captured early on in the war. He wouldn’t know Jesus from Adam, except for maybe his reputation as a trouble-maker. Further, he was not on the mount of Olives with the disciples, so how could he know Jesus was even coming in the clouds of heaven?
You are really missing the point by a huge margin Philip. It doesn't matter one iota that Josephus was Jewish ... the point is that Jesus Christ is THE central figure in the Second Coming ... and all you have is soldiers flying in the clouds. Now if Josephus had said "there was one of those flying entities that stood out among all the rest, he seemed to be the commander of this strange event."
Do you see what I am saying?
Christ is not going to be a background figure at the second coming! You are projecting the image that Christ merely blended in with the hordes of heaven. That because Josephus was Jewish that he could not recognize an individual among the horde. The horde is not the central focus of the second coming ... it is Christ!
You are not interested in a serious discussion. And your method of interpretation (which conveniently ignores all O.T. imagery of clouds and the powers of heaven) can mean “anything and everything,” depending on the imagination of the interpreter. How many different “Antichrists” do we have to endure?
If Jesus literally left the planet in the clouds of heaven (as recorded in Acts 1), and the angelic messenger in Acts 1 told the disciples He will return in the same way ... there is no reason we must now allegorize a second coming ...
It was, by the way, the most spectacular event in human history
No ... but it will be.
And your method of interpretation (which conveniently ignores all O.T. imagery of clouds and the powers of heaven) can mean “anything and everything,”
This is not a discussion of interpretive method, as I mentioned before, it is a departure of solid theological method. Let me explain ...
You see, there are four basic steps in constructing a systematic theology when approaching it from a dispensational framework. They are ...
1. Recognize presuppositions
2. Construction of a Biblical Theology of the Old Testament based upon a literal interpretation of the OT text.
3. Construction of a Biblical Theology of the New Testament based upon a literal interpretation of the NT text.
4. Production of a systematic theology by harmonizing all inputs to theology, including 2 and 3 above.
Then the old saying "lather, rinse, repeat" applies as new understanding of passages, etc. becomes available.
However, your theological method (and most all non-dispensational approachs) use the following steps:
1. Recognize presuppositions
2. Construction of a Biblical Theology of the New Testament based upon a literal interpretation of the NT text.
3. Construction of a Biblical Theology of the Old Testament based upon a New Testament UNDERSTANDING of the OT text.
4. Production of a systematic theology by harmonizing all inputs to theology, including 2 and 3 above.
This is a huge difference in theological method. While there are several ramification to this approach, the major flaw in this interpretive method is that you have no true Biblical theology of the OT that you have constructed. Your NT understanding VETOES any OT background that should be brought in as a proper input to step 4, the construction of a systematic theology.
As a result of the lack of a true Biblical theology of the OT ... you minimize the obvious progressive nature of divine revelation ... causing you to all but abandon the OT altogether. The result is that the church replaces Israel, all OT prophecy has been fulfilled, yada yada yada.
I respect those who would seek to reconcile our two approaches (Bock, Blaising, etc.) ... but I am not convinced that the effort will produce any lasting fruit.
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34 KJV)
OK ... since you brought it up ... go back to Matt 23:36 ... you will see that 'this generation' cannot mean what you are claiming. If 'this generation' meant the generation that Jesus was speaking to right then and there ... when did they proclaim "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?" (in the verses that follow). ... BTW ... that proclamation is Messianic ... blessed is the coming one ... since Matt 23 happened after the Triumphal Entry (TE), the fulfillment of that proclamation had to come after the TE. So the natural question is ... if all these things happened in 70 AD, when did the Jews living in Jesus day make that Messianic proclamation? ... they didn't !! And 'they' haven't made that Messianic proclamation to this very day!
The 'they' has to refer to something else ...
If you go back to Matt 23: you will find the statements of Jesus to the Pharisees ...
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Do you see how Jesus used a collective 'you' to refer to the Jews as a people? ... The leaders as representatives of the entire Jewish race and nation? Those Pharisees were not present when Zechariah was slain ... yet Jesus said ... 'whom you murdered' ... So when Jesus used 'you' in 23:35 ... He did not mean 'you whom are alive now and that I am speaking to' since they were not alive when Zechariah was slain. This is a very important larger contextual item in the Matt 23-25 discourse.
I happen to disagree with most dispensationalists on what 'this generation' means ... most take it as the generation that is alive in the future ... when all these things will be fulfilled. I dont see it that way ... it makes the most sense, in the larger context of the Matt 23 discourse with the Pharisees that 'this generation' is a collective type phrase that encompasses the entire race of Jews. This generation will not pass away ... the collective 'you' in Matt 23:35 that Jesus said murdered Zechariah IS the collective 'generation' of Matt 23:36 and 24:34.
What do I think this means? It means that the Jewish nation will not be eliminated (the Jews still exist) before the events of the second coming can take place. Despite Satan's attempt at eliminating the Jews under Hitler, they still remain ... and WILL remain as a race of people until the second coming.
I think I am done with this thread ...
I addressed it in #225.
>>>But at least you did admit the "Beast" is multiple persons and not one. That is a first admission of such. <<<
I thought everyone knew that. It is not a difficult interpretation.
>>>Yet the "series of Beasties" and their armies are not "the good guys" in Revelation 19 but arrayed against Christ Jesus and His Army. It is the armies of the beast and kings of the nations who become bird and worm food and not the inhabitants of Jerusalem.<<<
That is a major error in interpretation, and explains why we are so far apart on the matter. It doesn't read "the armies of the beast." Further, it doesn't say there was any sort of physical war at this event. Re-read that passage:
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Rev 19:19-21 KJV)
The beast and the false prophet were not slain in battle, nor does it appear they were even in the battle, but pulled from it before the Lord released his mighty "sword," which proceeded out of his mouth! And who was slain? Not the "armies," but the remnant.
One other point: the Lord and his armies were not on the earth:
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. . . And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:11,14 KJV)
It was a "spiritual" war, if you can deal with that word.
The battle on the earth, however, was between the Roman and Jewish armies, with the Roman armies fighting for the Lord. The Roman armies were represented by 10 horns or kings. The only reason I know that is because they are the ones who made Jerusalem desolate. This is the passage:
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast… these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." (Rev 17:12-13, 16 KJV)
Now, the identity of the Whore is easy: is was the bride of the Lord that went off whoring after other gods:
"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,…Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms … And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.” (Ezekiel 16:2, 35-36,38)
The identity of the 10 "kings" is not easily understood. They could have been the governors of the 10 Roman provinces, or they could have been generals of 10 Roman legions that took part in the war. On thing is certain: they weren't really kings, but received power as kings for "one hour," which is the exact amount of "time" it took to destroy Jerusalem
". . . Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come." (Rev 18:10 KJV)
"… for in one hour is she made desolate." (Rev 18:19 KJV)
Therefore, John applied multiple definitions to the word "king" or "kings," which could change one's understanding of the "king's" and their armies in Rev 19.
These were the reasons for the judgement against Jerusalem. Read carefully:
"For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." (Rev 16:6 KJV)
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6 KJV)
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Rev 18:20 KJV)
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24 KJV)
Jesus spoke of similar reasons for the judgement in the gospels.
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:" (Mat 23:34 KJV)
"… I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:49-51 KJV)
Since the blood of all the prophets, and all other righteous blood, was required of Jesus' generation in Jerusalem; and in Babylon the Great was found the blood of prophets, and all that were slain on the earth: there is no doubt in my mind that "Babylon the Great" in the Revelation was a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem; but written in terms only the Christians of that day could fully understand.
Philip
Word games. The beast, the kings of the earth AND THEIR armies are arrayed against Christ in Revelation 19. How those forces become allied with the cause of Christ against Jerusalem is no where in the text. You have a physical AND spiritual war going on the same time with the beast and his forces as enemies of Christ yet doing His work as an ally. Convoluted. Upthread you told me Revelation 19 had nothing to do with Jerusalem, yet somehow the inhabitants of Jerusalem are the feast of birds in Revelation 19. Convoluted.
I recommend you "take a knee" for a few and actually figure out your eschatology. The moving goal posts approach is becoming tiresome. This is what you get, though, when an eschatology is based on trying to prove another wrong.
>>>You are really missing the point by a huge margin Philip. It doesn’t matter one iota that Josephus was Jewish ... the point is that Jesus Christ is THE central figure in the Second Coming ... and all you have is soldiers flying in the clouds. Now if Josephus had said “there was one of those flying entities that stood out among all the rest, he seemed to be the commander of this strange event. Do you see what I am saying?”<<<
I see what you are saying, but there is no answer to your question, because your question leaves no room for interpretation. You have convinced yourself your “literal” interpretation is all you need to know, and you already have it all figured out! All I see are your set-in-stone opinions, but I do not think that I can convince you that they are only your opinions.
All we have is the scripture, and we have to take it as it is. But you seem to have refused any notion that maybe those words in the NT prophesies were created using many of the same allegorical (figurative) techniques as the OT testament prophesies. It was the same Holy Ghost that moved all the prophets? Do you think the Holy Ghost modernized for the New Testament prophecies?
Worse, you have somehow convinced yourself that some mystical, upcoming event, that has been fuelled by a long list of false prophecies from almost the first century, will be “the most spectacular event in human history;” while completely discounting the complete destruction of Jerusalem, and the virtual destruction of an entire race of what were God’s chosen people, as just another day in the neighbourhood.
To put it in the best way I know how, I have no idea where you are coming from, and I am not sure I want to know.
No matter. If you want to play “gotcha,” or some other word game, go play with someone else. If you want to debate, debate. If you want to explain why you are so adamant that your literal interpretation is the way to go, with plenty of supporting scripture, I will debate you. I am not going to play the “my opinion is better than your opinion” game. I am too old.
Philip
>>>Actually I am more concerned Pastor Otis is using 19th Century Revisionist Rationalist liberal scholars for his eschatology studies. He should know better than that.<<<
I doubt he would care what you think. All anyone has to do is watch his videos and they will quickly realize is not an “Honest-Charley Used Car” salesman, like Tommy Ice; but rather a pretty nice fellow who is well-founded in Reformed Presbyterian theology.
Is your goal in life to cast aspersions at everyone who doesn’t adhere to your warped set of rules?
Philip
Quite a loaded question, no? Especially when I presented nothing on this thread to be construed as "warped."
Actually Pastor Otis has a book on Creation I am interesting in reading.
>>>OK ... since you brought it up ... go back to Matt 23:36 ... you will see that ‘this generation’ cannot mean what you are claiming. If ‘this generation’ meant the generation that Jesus was speaking to right then and there ... when did they proclaim “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?” (in the verses that follow). ... BTW ... that proclamation is Messianic ... blessed is the coming one ... since Matt 23 happened after the Triumphal Entry (TE), the fulfillment of that proclamation had to come after the TE. So the natural question is ... if all these things happened in 70 AD, when did the Jews living in Jesus day make that Messianic proclamation? ... they didn’t !! And ‘they’ haven’t made that Messianic proclamation to this very day!<<<
I have no idea what you are talking about, or why. Can you reword that using complete sentences?
(I hope this is not that same dumb argument that Mark Hitckcock used in one of his debates.)
Philip
>>>Actually Pastor Otis has a book on Creation I am interesting in reading.<<<
Then why are you trying to smear him?
>>>I think I am done with this thread ...<<<
I think that is a very good idea.
Philip
>>>Word games. <<<
And yours are not? That is funny.
>>The beast, the kings of the earth, AND THEIR armies are arrayed against Christ in Revelation 19.<<<
Who is “THEIR”?
>>>You have a physical AND spiritual war going on the same time with the beast and his forces as enemies of Christ yet doing His work as an ally. <<<
No I didn’t. Show me.
>>Upthread you told me Revelation 19 had nothing to do with Jerusalem<<<
No I didn’t. Show me.
Redleg, I recommend you take the time to read my posts with greater care. That may help you from interjecting your bias into the picture.
Philip
An exercise in futility as you have shifted positions from allegory to literal and back again.
True, while those who believe He returned already can present a a stumbling block, as can those who set dates (there are still "Jesus will return in 1992" stickers around). Occupy till He comes.
No I didn’t. Show me.
Phil upthreadNow the destruction of Jerusalem (Babylon the Great) is found primarily in Rev 18; and history has recorded that it was destroyed, completely, by the Roman armies. The wedding takes place around Rev 19:5-10. Another event occurs beginning in Rev 19:11. That is where the Lord's armies IN HEAVEN fight against the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies. This a heavenly army fighting against an earthly army and beings. The beast and the false prophet were not part of the battle, or so it appears, but were taken "off the battlefield" and cast into the lake of fire:
Your words above in brown. Your post implies Jesus Christ is fighting a war from Heaven against "the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies." Then you stated the birds were feeding off the 1.1 million Jews in Jerusalem. Then you told me the Roman legions were fighting for the will of God against Jerusalem, but in Revelation 19 those armies are arrayed against Christ.
This normally happens when you try to stuff 10-lbs of stuff in a 2-lbs bag.
Now Revelation 18:
9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
From where in chapter 18 do you derive a Roman army or any army at all is destroying Babylon (aka Jerusalem for your interpretation)? When was first century AD Jerusalem "abundance of her luxury?" What merchants wept upon the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70? The bread and goat industry?
LOL It’s nearly impossible to debate scripture with preterists.
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