Charismatics in Context

Ignitum Today ^ | 30 January 2014 | Matthew Olson

[matthewrobertolson]

“Certain signs point to a weakening in the sense of mystery in those very liturgical celebrations that should be fostering that sense. It is, therefore, urgent that the authentic sense of the liturgy be revived in the Church. The liturgy...is a means of sanctification; it is a celebration of the Church's faith, and a means of transmitting the faith.” - Ecclesia in Europa

To be forthright, I have always found the “Charismatic” style, whether Protestant or Catholic, repugnant. The first time I witnessed it, I instinctively recoiled: I thought, “How is this pleasing to God?”

Praise is great (CCC #2639), but the gestures, the dancing, the circuses – they disturb me. In my view, Charismatics tend to, unwittingly or not, demote to the Mass to a kind of “religious entertainment,” which Pope Benedict XVI warned against. In response to this charge, proponents of these things almost always turn to 2 Samuel 6:14. Yes, King David danced to celebrate God. But did God commend him for this behavior? No. Did this even take place in the Temple, the formal place of worship? No. The writer surely did not mean to set some kind of liturgical precedent. He, instead, meant for us to better understand the importance of thankfulness and humility. But context be damned!

Perhaps I am so bothered because I am an American. I recognize that the individualistic culture of America, which is being exported to the rest of the world, has caused the rise of excessive indulgence and a disinterest in any sort of solemnity or sacrifice. Caput is the cilice and forgotten is Friday fasting. This mentality does not bode well for evangelization efforts.

There has been little upside to the Charismatic movement. While, in and of itself, it has been supported by popes for its purported ecumenical benefits, it has caused problems.

In South America, this has all been imported. These abuses were certainly not encouraged by the Spanish settlers. These foreign additions were only incorporated to appease the masses. Do they even help the Church? I think that that question is answered by the rapid and continuing rise of Pentecostalism. The new culture of the region promotes using the Church for self-gratification, though “[t]he purpose of the liturgy of the Church is not to placate people's desires or fears” (Ecclesia in Europa). After they get their highest high, parishioners leave and look for a new dealer. As one of my Mexican friends bluntly put it, “Hispanics like to use the Church as a crutch.” Take into account the gross negligence of area bishops, and you have a recipe for spiritual disaster. When Pope Alexander VI spread the Faith to the continent, I doubt that this is what he had in mind.

In Africa, meanwhile, dancing and jubilation are historically ingrained in cultural events, so it has a different set of circumstances that make them more acceptable. On top of that, Africans deserve a lot more leeway because of their demonstrated perseverance. But even there, cardinals have had to set up barriers in response to the movement.

Liturgical relativism leads to doctrinal relativism. That is the reality. Once barely-restrained liturgy is allowed, the practitioners of said liturgy usually like to see what else they can get away with. “If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk.”

There is a place for Charismatics in the Church – I'm not a bloodhound, just mindful of liturgy – but instead of shouting the equivalent of, “Throw your hands in the air and wave 'em like you just don't care!”, perhaps the clergy and the leaders of the movement should restore a deeper respect for our Lord.

“Liturgical celebrations need once more to put Jesus at the [center], so that we can be enlightened and guided by him” (Ecclesia in Europa).

---

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[BlueDragon]

The "show us" questions are central to that which still much divides ourselves (whatever we are-- Evangelicals? "Protestants?" other Christians not much connected or wedded to idea there was to be some singular "papacy" as it grew to become to be known, it not having been there from the very beginnings of Christianity?, yeah, those guys) and those who subscribe to Roman Catholicism as we see it described.

I would gladly set aside desire to have my own replies addressed, if your own were to be considered with due care, rather than be either fought against, distracted away from --- or simply ignored.

I sit here and write -- after just hearing of my own father having passed. And a little dog which was my one of my sister's own before she passed away about a year ago -- has some infirmity I don't know what -- but is as if imploring me to help him, I'm afraid the little dog is going to go, too. poor thing. he won't eat, for two days now. something is really wrong. I pity the little creature. he's innocent, and as sweet a little dog as he can be. he does try.

[mitch5501]

"Scripture to back that up is found where??"

Please suffer me to be a bit cheeky metmom....

John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

The apostle Peter went from denying Christ in fear to preaching in public on pain of death (and eventually,actual death)

I think the fact that Peter saw with his own eyes the risen Christ actually swept away completely any and all double mindedness,fear,doubt etc.It was then the mountains started moving for him.

In a very similar vein,if we are indeed living in the very last days of this age then I believe and hope a very similar thing is going to come upon believers.

God is going to equip those that are 'watching' in a big way.He told us many things beforehand so that when we see,because we are 'watching' then we will believe.

There may be literally millions of 'Peters' right now who are passionately believing on Jesus against everything in the world and even themselves and are still being hindered by the world and themselves.

Perhaps there will soon come the time when we no longer need to cry out "Lord I believe,help thou my unbelief" and then the sky will be blotted out by flying mountains and the beaches will be covered in washed up herds of swine.

Assuming the rapture to be pretrib,it would go some way to explaining why so many (that they can not be numbered)will turn to Christ on pain of loosing their heads after spending so long either holding Him at arms length or outright denying Him.

They and of course we have been told "before it come" in order that "when it comes" we may believe.

Please excuse the rant,hope it made some sense.

Grace and peace to you both!

[mitch5501]

Amen BB!

Thankyou so much for the post Kandy Atz,a wonderfull encouragement!

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church

[mitch5501]

Dear BlueDragon

There's little I can say to all that,but grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Right this minute I'm cursing the physical distance between us.

(((hug))

[wardaddy]

Just curious

Is this yet another Catholic attack on non Catholics so Catholics here can then claim anti Catholic bigotry pervades the forum when we non Catholics push back against this chauvinism?

I’m Southern Baptist with Charismatic leanings....never ever seen in my life nasty Catholics like some here....its bizarre.... day in day out....swinging that metaphorical blade of the faith making pals

Five children whom I pay for not the state in response to whichever jerk here made that absurd accusation

A Catholic claiming charismatics had too many kids who they don’t take care of?
...is that rich or what....Hola Pancho!

I swear you guys act like its 1572 again....

Yet most Catholics in America exist in a bubble where they dominate

Large urban northern areas

So why so aggressive to other denominations?

We are a threat to you how exactly?

[metmom]

Well, I’m HOPING that there will be a revival just before the end. I’m praying for it. Nothing would thrill me more than to see LOTS of people come to Christ.

But there is also Scripture that indicates that there will be a falling away and apostasy before the end.

What will happen, will happen.

[metmom]

I’m Southern Baptist with Charismatic leanings....never ever seen in my life nasty Catholics like some here....its bizarre.... day in day out....swinging that metaphorical blade of the faith making pals

Did you grow up in a heavily Catholic area?

Because I did and this kind of behavior is NOTHING new to me. I endured plenty of it at school and work.

[mitch5501]

"But there is also Scripture that indicates that there will be a falling away and apostasy before the end."

One doesn't necessarily negate the other.I think pretty much everything you listed will happen.Great apostacy,falling away and lots of people coming to Christ.

[daniel1212]

I sit here and write -- after just hearing of my own father having passed. And a little dog which was my one of my sister's own before she passed away about a year ago -- has some infirmity I don't know what -- but is as if imploring me to help him, I'm afraid the little dog is going to go, too. poor thing. he won't eat, for two days now. something is really wrong. I pity the little creature. he's innocent, and as sweet a little dog as he can be. he does try.

Sorry about your dad's passing, but hope he was on the Lord;s side. And yes, dogs can be precious to us, and i have stories....but they can know when it is time to go.

A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. (Proverbs 12:10)

[mitch5501]

Thanks for that scripture Daniel.Never seen that before. BTW thankyou for the pings.

[daniel1212]

We are a threat to you how exactly?

We are a threat because we expose the presumptions of Rome and her errors in the light of Scripture and history, and as Rome is their source of security and object of affection as if it were a gold, and which they incessantly publicize, thus the knee jerk reactions to anything that impugns upon the exalted status this elitist "church."

After i became born again (1977) while still being a weekly Catholic, i appreciated fellowship in Christ with others, which i never ever had know before, as i never really was converted before that.

[restornu]

But there is also Scripture that indicates that there will be a falling away and apostasy before the end.

***

This started long ago even to this day many do not know they too are the children of Israel, that is how clueless many are, Judah is only one portion....

All Jew are of Israel, but not all of Israel is Jewish.

Amos 8

11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

[wardaddy]

No

I grew up in Mississippi

Jackson to be precise back when it was white and safe

We had population of around 350000 metro

3 catholic churches and elementary schools
One catholic high school

So no....not like New Orleans or the Coast

Or Jersey

But I never felt this animosity..

And had extended family in Catholic church too

I did get the sense most were not as adherent as we were...nor as behavior oriented but more good works

Still do...the devout on this forum notwithstanding

[Manic_Episode]

2 Samuel 6:16

As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

[Kackikat]

The apostacy in America has already been happening, while a new awakening revival has been going on in three places I can name; Wales, Africa, Toronto. And there will be the 144,000 pure of the 12 tribes in the last days to be brought into the Kingdom. (REV 14)

That’s not to say the falling away from the church won’t continue in other places in the world. (these are believers because you can’t fall away if you haven’t been there). So even while some are being brought into the knowledge of Christ through revivals, many who were believers are deceived, discouraged, and leave for a variety of reasons.

I agree with you and pray there will be a revival of those souls the Saints have prayed for, such as their children, etc. The Bible says ‘the promise is not just to us but as many as are afar off” (our offspring).

Blessings to you and yours.

[Kackikat]

Thank you...I enjoyed the rant.

[Kackikat]

Too much overtime, small children up at night, or just plain too much partying...lol

[jda]

I learned a long time ago that the way I look at someone else (in regard to their worship style, dress, or whatever else) will not affect where they spend eternity, but it may affect where I do.

[BlueDragon]

thank you

[metmom]

I did get the sense most were not as adherent as we were...nor as behavior oriented but more good works

Now there's a gem. That summarizes it beautifully.

Catholics are BIG on *good works* but I almost never see them emphasize the change in behavior that occurs when one becomes a new creature in Christ.