Posted on 01/08/2014 1:11:34 PM PST by DouglasKC
Thanks for sharing those stories. I question of course the conclusions of the website about UCG they sound as misinformed as you.
But if the testimonies are true it's heartbreaking when people are misused and mistreated by anyone, much less church families.
As I recall you are Orthodox Presbyterian. Do you suppose I could find any mistreatment of church members by Orthodox Presbytarians?
If I did would you say that invalidates everything you believe and what your church teaches?
Do you suppose I can find anyone willing to tell Catholic horror stories of ministerial abuse? And if so would it invalidate your doctrine and your beliefs?
I totally believe that there is a holy spirit. That's abundantly clear in scripture and my life. But this is not a picture of the holy spirit in heaven.
And have you run out of scriptures and ideas? I mean, you're back to metaphorically slinging mud so I figure you must be done.
And what's your answer to this:
You said: "This they believe, despite the fact that it was actually, hisitorically, celebrated everyday: “I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ” (Augustine, Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
I said: Do you observe this daily GPH? You insisted it was abnormal for me to observe the "lord's supper" exactly as he did....on the Passover. You did so by suggesting that 400 years AFTER the death of Christ that it was being done every day in the traditional church. Do you observe it every day in accordance with the quote you posted?
Vienna Presbyterian Church seeks forgiveness, redemption in wake of abuse scandal
Horrible story. Google "presbyterian abuse"...it's eye opening.
Now, should I judge you, devalue you and your church and dehumanize you based on these thousands and thousands of stories of Presbyterian abuse?
Hopefully you'll learn a lesson here friend...
“If I did would you say that invalidates everything you believe and what your church teaches?”
Unlike Christian churches, the UCG is very insular and encourages total disengagement with the world, and total dependence on the “true” church of God:
“While United Church of God boldly claims: “no one is ever asked for donations”; “no offering is collected at services” and “we do not solicit the general public for funds,” these are the exact same words HWA used for years through his “free” Plain Truth, World Tomorrow and Bible Correspondence program. However, once ensnared within Herbert Armstrong’s “one true church,” members were commanded to save more than a first tithe. There was a second and third tithe to be paid, plus seven holy day offerings a year, as well as numerous other “needs” such as a building fund and emergencies. UCG members likewise are told it is biblical to pay headquarters a first tithe on their net income (along with offerings) for the “furtherance of the Work.” To fail to do so is considered “stealing from God,” yet, in the same breath they go on to say that they are “free to tithe on gross income if they so choose” and can even “give contributions above their tithes.”7 (This is nothing more than manipulation.) A 2nd tithe is saved for the purpose of spending it during the Feast days (most specifically the Feast of Tabernacles). A third tithe is paid every 3rd year out of seven, and while they will give a lengthy explanation about who is ineligible to pay this tithe, members are still “encouraged” to give a third tithe to the “Church’s Assistance Fund.” (Ministers claim they are part of the Levitical priesthood and do not have to pay 2nd or 3rd tithes.) In addition, generous offerings are taken up on all the O. T. feast days.
Members are not to observe Christmas, Easter, Valentine’s Day, etc., calling them “pagan” (similar to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teachings, which is one group that HWA plagiarized from). However, birthdays are an exception.
Members are to expected to observe Sabbath, which they say is “a sign of God’s people.” (HWA also plagiarized from Seventh-day Adventism (co-founded by Ellen G. White who plagiarized from others yet claimed the “Truth” was revealed to her directly by God.)
They frown on marrying someone who is not a member of UCG.
They teach that voting in public elections, while not in itself considered a “sin,” nevertheless, should not be done. (More double-talk.) It’s the same with the military. They are encouraged not to join.”
From the same link from before: http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/ucg.htm#15
You’d be hard pressed to find anyone other than members of fringe groups comparing “abuses” within the Presbyterian churches of the world, the RCC, the Southern Baptists, Methodists, etc, with the UCG, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the Moonies, as if they can be compared.
“You did so by suggesting that 400 years AFTER the death of Christ”
OK, from the Didache, which dates between 50 to 120AD. It places communion once a week, on the Lord’s Day.
“But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.”
Also, the specifics:
“Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:
We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..
And concerning the broken bread:
We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..
But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
Doesn’t sound like the annual Passover of the Jews.
Justin Martyr (100AD-167AD), likewise, defines the day of meeting on the Lord’s day (Sunday), and this, not annually, but every week:
“On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read ... then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs.... Then we all rise together and pray, and ... when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings ... and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each.... Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.” (First Apology, LXVII)”
John Chrysostom (Born 347, died 407), in his rebuke of those who receive it unworthily, mentions it as occurring “daily.”
“I observe many partaking of Christ’s Body lightly and just as it happens, and rather from custom and form, than consideration and understanding. When, says a man, the holy season of Lent sets in, whatever a man may be, he partakes of the mysteries, or, when the day of the Lord’s Epiphany comes. And yet it is not the Epiphany, nor is it Lent, that makes a fit time for approaching, but it is sincerity and purity of soul. With this, approach at all times; without it, never. For as often, 1 Corinthians 11:26 says he, as you do this, you proclaim the Lord’s death, i.e., you make a remembrance of the salvation that has been wrought for you, and of the benefits which I have bestowed. Consider those who partook of the sacrifices under the old Covenant, how great abstinence did they practise? How did they not conduct themselves? What did they not perform? They were always purifying themselves. And do you, when you draw near to a sacrifice, at which the very Angels tremble, do you measure the matter by the revolutions of seasons? And how shall you present yourself before the judgment-seat of Christ, thou who presumest upon His body with polluted hands and lips? You would not presume to kiss a king with an unclean mouth, and the King of heaven do you kiss with an unclean soul? It is an outrage. Tell me, would you choose to come to the Sacrifice with unwashen hands? No, I suppose, not. But you would rather choose not to come at all, than come with soiled hands. And then, thus scrupulous as you are in this little matter, do you come with soiled soul, and thus dare to touch it? And yet the hands hold it but for a time, whereas into the soul it is dissolved entirely. What, do you not see the holy vessels so thoroughly cleansed all over, so resplendent? Our souls ought to be purer than they, more holy, more brilliant. And why so? Because those vessels are made so for our sakes. They partake not of Him that is in them, they perceive Him not. But we do—yes, verily. Now then, you would not choose to make use of a soiled vessel, and do you approach with a soiled soul? Observe the vast inconsistency of the thing. At the other times you come not, no, not though often you are clean; but at Easter, however flagrant an act you may have committed, you come. Oh! The force of custom and of prejudice! In vain is the daily Sacrifice, in vain do we stand before the Altar; there is no one to partake. These things I am saying, not to induce you to partake any how, but that you should render yourselves worthy to partake. Are you not worthy of the Sacrifice, nor of the participation? If so, then neither are you of the prayer.” (John Chrysostom, Third Homily on Ephesians)
“Do you observe it every day in accordance with the quote you posted?”
I certainly would enjoy it, but I do not. That said, whether it is once a week, or daily, it’s no help for the UCG’s claims of it being an annual event, practiced as the Passover according to the Jews.
“And have you run out of scriptures and ideas?”
We haven’t begun a scriptural debate actually in this thread. Though, we had it before, and I’ve had it with multiple people lately, for some odd reason. In this thread I’ve just been fleshing out what the UCG teaches, in response to other posts on this thread.
But, to begin with:
On dietary prohibitions:
1Ti_4:4 For EVERY creature of God is good, and NOTHING to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
On dietary prohibitions, fasts and holy days:
“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
(Rom 14:1-5)
Again, on dietary prohibitions, New Moons, Sabbaths, and any holydays. The “ordinances’ that were against us, were nailed to the cross, therefore, we ought not let any one judge us in meat, or drink, or holydays, etc:
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:”
(Col 2:13-16)
On Christian worship and communion on the sabbath, or on the Lord’s Day, the latter is referenced:
Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
Note, the “breaking of bread” isn’t like them getting together just to eat, it is the same as celebrating the Lord’s supper:
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
“When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.”
(1Co 11:20-26)
Though, no specific commandment is ever given in scripture on when we should celebrate the Lord’s supper, or on the frequency. We only see, by observation, that they met on the Lord’s day for it (the first of the week). Whatever the case, it is not Passover, and there is no commandment anywhere in the NT to celebrate any of the feast days, since they, being part of the Old Covenant, are now made obsolete by Christ’s blood.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
In light of UCG claims of God “reproducing” after the ‘God Kind” to add more “divine” “literal” sons and daughters into the Godhead, and that the word “God” is a common noun for many people who are “gods”, possessing the title like a last name:
God declares that His name is Yehovah, the self-existent one, or, from everlasting from everlasting:
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
He is not many “I ams,” but one LORD, with no other beside Him:
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
God is, by definition, from everlasting to everlasting, and no other “gods” can ever be created.
“before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)
God does not change, but is the same today, tomorrow, and forevermore:
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Christ is defined as everlasting, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow:
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God describes Himself as the First and the Last, and thus, the same from all eternity to eternity:
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Compare with Christ:
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
There are not three Almighties, but only one Almighty.
Gen_17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Compare with Christ who is, of Himself, almighty, and from eternity to eternity:
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
God is a Trinity, consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who are one in substance, not merely one in “purpose”, as the UCG says:
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
The Spirit is not a mere “force” or inanimate object, but is God eternal:
(Act 5:3-4) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Act_13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
I think calling Jesus God may be a polemic to some.
I went with in laws to a Catholic Church service on Christmas Eve and the priest was referring to Jesus as God. This made me uncomfortable. Jesus is not God the father, at least that is what I was taught. Jesus was a God’s son made flesh.
Blah blah..my eyes are glazing over from the sheer ignorance of this statement.
It sounds like not one of these "sources" you're posting has ever even set foot in a United congregation. And everyone of them just regurgitates the same tripe.
Look here's a challenge...you're in what...California?
Find the closest local congregation and then just show up for services. Face your fears. Slay those monsters in your mind. If you do go though let me give you some advice...DO NOT act like you do here. You do that in any public place and they'll likely haul you down to crazytown. :-)
OK, from the Didache, which dates between 50 to 120AD. It places communion once a week, on the Lord’s Day.
“But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.”
It's questionable that this actually referring to the Lord's supper. The didache discusses it in a different section. This seems to be more concerned with fellowship.
But even if accurate then so what? They got it wrong.
And they got it wrong because when this was written it was the height of Roman persecution against Jews.
Anybody that was doing *anything* that even looked Jewish was being persecuted because of the rebellions of the Jews against Rome. There were a large number of Christians that, to save their skins, abandoned the things that made them look too Jewish. The feasts, the food laws, the sabbath....ALL are distinct markings that can't easily be hidden.
That's why I don't debate tradition when it comes to this. I readily acknowledge that the traditional church abandoned certain practices for fear of persecution from the Roman government.
I certainly would enjoy it, but I do not. That said, whether it is once a week, or daily, it’s no help for the UCG’s claims of it being an annual event, practiced as the Passover according to the Jews.
Then next time don't tell me I'm doing something wrong when you're not doing it at all.
There are two examples of timing of the lord's supper in scripture:
Luk 22:15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
Luk 22:16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
Luk 22:17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
Luk 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
This happened on PASSOVER. Jesus wants to eat the PASSOVER.
The Passover is an annual holy day, instituted and created by Christ himself in Leviticus 23:
Lev_23:5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD's Passover.
It's not weird to keep the Passover and to replicate what Christ said to do on his day....Passover...it's weird NOT to.
The other example that shows the timing of the "Lord's supper" or the Passover ceremony is in 1 Corinthians:
1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
Stop for moment...what night? Passover!
1Co 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.
Do you suppose Paul is giving instructions about the Passover ceremony for a reason? Of course...because PASSOVER is close...look what he wrote earlier in his letter:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
What feast is he talking about?? Why, the feast of Passover and apparently unleavened bread. And the greek is clear here. Paul is instructing his congregations to OBSERVE a feast of God. That's what the greek word means. There is no other meaning.
So going by scripture the Passover ceremony, the Lord's supper, is done ON PASSOVER. It was done that way by the Lord Jesus Christ and by his disciples.
Tradition....well...we know what happened there.
I guess I would need to hear it in context. I know many protestants direct their prayers to Jesus instead of the father and that strikes me as odd because Jesus said to do the opposite. I know Jesus Christ is God but again back to marriage analogy and scripture...the husband is the head of the wife. I think the father is the head of Christ. It's not that Christ is inferior or not equal. It's just that these are their roles...it's the nature of the Godhead which is reflected, or supposed to be reflected, in marriage.
On dietary prohibitions, fasts and holy days: “Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” (Rom 14:1-5)
The verses in Romans 14 have nothing to do with holy days. In nt literature a holy day of the Lord is called, in the greek, "heorte". For example:
Act 18:21 but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast (HEORTE) in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing." And he sailed from Ephesus.
The word "heorte" never occurs in Romans 14. Neither does sabbath. Whatever days Paul is referring to have absolutely nothing to do with God's holy days.
Also, the focus of the chapter is, as you suggest, on food. But to think that Paul is advocating that Christians should eat pork and other flesh that Christ said not to eat strikes me as Olympic caliber mental gymnastics.
For example Antiochus Epiphanies sacrifices swine on the Jewish altar 200 years before this. It made such a huge impact that it was called the "abomination of desolation". It makes no sense biblically, culturally, or historically to believe that Paul would be advocating eating pork. It didn't happen. It's fiction. Traditional Christianity abandoned this biblical practice because Rome hated Jews. And later, in a desperate attempt to justify it, traditional Christianity lifted the same verses out of all context to justify it.
Another thing...most scholars believe that Revelation was the latest book written....maybe around 90 AD. Yet curiously we have this passage:
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!
Who is speaking? A might angel of God. And he, this mighty angel of God, is still referring to certain types of birds (even metaphorically) as "unclean".
Didn't this mighty angel of God get the memo? There is no such thing as "unclean" animals Mr. Mighty Angel of God. What the heck are you talking about?
Nah, the answer is that you have it wrong friend. Do a study on akathartos and koinos. The concept of akathartos is absolutely ingrained in the people of God throughout all the scriptures..from beginning to end.
Let's look at actual bible verses that show the Godhead in heaven:
Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
Two, ancient of days, son of man. No such person called holy spirit there in heaven.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
God and the Word. Two. No person called the holy spirit in the Godhead with them. The two ARE God.
Rev_22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev_22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
Who have thrones? Two. God and the Lamb. There is no throne, ever, for a person called the holy spirit.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev_7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Who does this vast multitude of saved people credit for their salvation? God and the lamb. Two. They do not credit a person called the holy spirit up there. Why do you suppose that is?
How about Jesus...what did he think?
Joh_10:30 I and My Father are one."
Oops! What happened here? Jesus Christ did not include a person called the holy spirit as being "one" of God. He only included the two of them.
Heb_8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Wait....where is the person called the holy spirit up there with God and his high priest. Again, only two of them.
Verse after verse after verse shows that there are two that make up the Godhead.
I am amazed that people just don't believe what they read and instead will embrace an idea that didn't become part of the official church teaching until nearly 400 years after Jesus died.
How do you explain this?
“I’ll start a different post on each one or else it will get long and unmanageable to respond.”
You might as well have posted nothing. You ignored 1 Tim 4:4 entirely, as well as the other verses, and, thus, your arguments are null already, and yet you posted anyway. You talked about Romans 14, but didn’t address what it actually said. How do you “esteemeth one day above another” and “regard the day” or “observe” the day, as the ESV puts it, and yet not be talking about holydays? Similarly, how can someone who believes they can “eat all things,” not believe they may eat all things? As far as I can tell, you do not think that any of these words have any meaning or significance.
Thus, your post speaks much, but does nothing.
“But even if accurate then so what? They got it wrong. And they got it wrong because when this was written it was the height of Roman persecution against Jews.”
The UCG claim is that Christians were actually not celebrating the body and blood of Christ, but were celebrating the seven Jewish feasts annually, from the earliest period. But then you say, that they weren’t, because Jews were being persecuted, and so they gave up their faith in the Jewish feasts, even though their confession in Christ was still leading them to their death, and all of this while the Apostles were still living, even after 70AD with John, who was yet alive during the time of Ignatius and Polycarp, who both celebrated as Christians continued to do for about 2,000 years, and both were martyred for their faith.
IOW, the UCG claim is contradictory, and has no historical or logical support. You can’t just say “so what.” You need evidence for a claim, not just assertions or a conspiracy theory.
You also ignored Acts 20:7, and I’ll also add Acts 20:11, Acts 2:42, Acts 2:46, which I did not mention, and then 1Co 10:16, 1Co 11:20-34, which I did. The Apostles celebrated the body and blood of Christ, breaking bread “from house to house,” with no regard for the season, and did not regard us as being “under the law,” but rejected circumcision, the dietary regulations, and all the other rites and regulations of the law.
That’s the real reason why Christians, historically, never practiced as you do. Not because of a conspiracy, or mass apostasy, as if the “gates of hell” did indeed prevail upon the church even before the death of the Apostles. But, simply, because we are under a New covenant, the old’s last vestiges having already disappeared with the destruction of the Jewish temple.
“I am amazed that people just don’t believe what they read”
But you’re the one who is literally ignoring scripture verses, which seems to be your constant habit, whatever the topic.
You just made my point for me.
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, He’s going to talk about something else now, not the elementary principles of Christ he was talking about before.
***That means that what he’s going to be talking about aint elementary principles of Christ. It’s so nice to agree.
I see no point in moving further if you don’t answer simple questions.
I’m not all that interested in hearing your heresy but perhaps there are others on this thread who are. I only recently came across the UCG brand of heresy and it struck me as particularly pernicious.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
"Every" creature is good and to be eaten?
Poisonous Animals You Can't Eat
Go ahead and try to take this verse at what you think it means. And since it doesn't mean "all" creatures then you have to look at the context of the verse.
Look at verse 3:
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
Which food did God "create to be received"? God listed them:
Lev_11:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth:
THESE animals are the animals God CREATED TO BE RECEIVED. He created some animals NOT to be received.
You talked about Romans 14, but didn’t address what it actually said. How do you “esteemeth one day above another” and “regard the day” or “observe” the day, as the ESV puts it, and yet not be talking about holydays?
Yes, I did but you must have missed it. HEORTE is the greek term that ALWAYS is used to refer to the holy days of the Lord God. The greek here does NOT refer to heorte. You are adding words to scripture that do not belong here.
Paul addressed a food issue when he had to determine if otherwise clean meat was okay to eat when it was sold in meat market after being slain in a pagan ritual. These verses could be referring to the days that this meat was sold in he meat market. "Esteeem" isnt' worship...the greek word means to decide or distinguish. blood of Christ, but were celebrating the seven Jewish feasts annually, from the earliest period. But then you say, that they weren’t, because Jews were being persecuted, and so they gave up their faith in the Jewish feasts, even though their confession in Christ was still leading them to their death, and all of this while the Apostles were still living, even after 70AD with John, who was yet alive during the time of Ignatius and Polycarp, who both celebrated as Christians continued to do for about 2,000 years, and both were martyred for their faith.
Polycarp was a disciple of John and kept the Passover on Nisan 14, just as John did. In fact Polycarp tried to persuade others not to abandon the Passover. This is explained quite nicely here:
You also ignored Acts 20:7, and I’ll also add Acts 20:11, Acts 2:42, Acts 2:46, which I did not mention, and then 1Co 10:16, 1Co 11:20-34, which I did. The Apostles celebrated the body and blood of Christ, breaking bread
Every instance of "break bread" in the scriptures does not mean that it was the bread and wine ceremony of Passover. You are reading that into all those verse. Breaking bread was and still is a euphemism for sharing a meal together.
In addition, none of these verses say anything about the wine, therefore it's complete supposition that these have anything to do with the wine and bread ceremony.
But you’re the one who is literally ignoring scripture verses, which seems to be your constant habit, whatever the topic.
I don't ignore them because they're not explainable. I ignore them because often the same point I make about one verse applies equally to other verses on the same subject matter.
Do you really not understand what the bible says here? My God man, Catholic and Protestant commentators all agree that these are talking about foundational beliefs of Christianity. Many denigrate it as "primitive" Christianity because they feel that Christianity has "evolved" but at LEAST they recognize this verse as saying exactly what it's saying...that these ARE fundamental beliefs and practices of Christians in the 1st century.
Again these are: "the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. "
You can get mad at me for not "evolving" past these but you can't change these very plain words to mean something that you invent whole cloth.
And if your church doesn't teach or practice these things then you're not in a Christian church or your church has "evolved"...i.e. substituted tradition for scripture.
I am more than happy to answer any question you have about my beliefs. More than happy.
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