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To: ThomasMore; Kolokotronis
You gotta be joking?

First, I proposed an empirical study. The answer could be "no difference". Where do you see anything funny?

But I believe that while the Novus Ordo rites (as well as 1969 baptism rite) are valid sacraments, this should not be an argument for Protestant style reductionism. As soon as a catechumen is baptized and reaches age of reason, deadly struggle begins between him and the Satanic forces. This is how the same source describes it:

The Grace of God protects man. He must, however, invoke God's help. Constant prayer and fasting, devoted meditation, regular Bible reading, following the two great commandments of God (love of God and love of neighbor) are the weapons of the Christian against temptation from demons. The inclination of the individual toward sinful desires, the so called consupisentia [sic], is not sin in itself; it is the weakness which needs protection; it is weakness which evil spirits try to exploit.

This is from an Orthodox site, but I don't see any difference on that with Catholicism. So, yes, I firmly believe that we should employ every weapon the Holy Church proposes for our salvation: fasting and prayer, and especially every kind of prayer of our Church for our soul.

The same of course applies to any rite, not just baptismal rite. While grace falls on everyone, it is the disposition of the soul, that is strengthened by much prayer and fasting, that allows the saving grace to work in us.

34 posted on 01/08/2014 5:11:21 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

“Protestant style reductionism”

My apologies for making lite of your comments. There was nothing funny. It was uncharitable. And my answer to your question you surmised well: “no difference”

However, I see no “Protestant style reductionism” in anything from the Novus Ordo rites. My assumption was that many “traditionalists” DO see the Novus Ordo rites as “Protestant style reductionism” and that I DO have a problem with.

Rites have changed, slowly, but consistently since the beginning. That makes them NO LESS efficacious in terms of God’s grace imparted. The unfortunate thing with the human condition is that we can and do fall from grace easily.

The best preventative is living a life of virtue starting with the foundation of all laws, as you stated from the Orthodox site, “love of God and love of neighbor”. We can debate all day long the theological value of the “prayers of exorcism” within any of the rites pre-Novus Ordo, but none of that would be, IMO, of value without that foundation, which Christ commanded and has been stated over and over in scripture.(Jn 15:12, Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14, 1 Th 3:12, James 2:8)


37 posted on 01/09/2014 8:00:20 AM PST by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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