Posted on 01/05/2014 1:56:06 PM PST by Steelfish
The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thes. 2:15)
"And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Tim. 2:2)
INTRODUCTION
Many Catholics and non-Catholics alike think that the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine presented on the altar at the Mass become the the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit at the consecration.
The consecration is the time when the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood. However, the Body and Blood retain the appearance of bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church, that is, the Latin Rite Catholic Church, and other Catholic Churches in communion with Rome believe that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. The Orthodox Churches and most other Churches of the East do so as well.
Anglican [Episcopalian] and other Protestant denominations have interpreted Christ's presence at the celebration of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist to be either only spiritual, or symbolic, or non-existent.
The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn't even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D. Following are the results of my search.
(Excerpt) Read more at therealpresence.org ...
Yet one RCA said its the Vatican site that can be trusted.
I have learned, as being one, and studying it, end of story.
Time for daily Mass!
Time for the daily delusion, a 45 minute ritual that is not the Lord's supper described in Scripture, but is an example of Christianized paganism.
It is not private interpretation but THE interpretation of the 1st, and 2nd and 3rd Century Christians who were much closer to the source than we are. It was THE interpretation for 1500 years.
By your logic ... Jesus must really be a 6x3 foot piece of mahogony since he said "I am the door" ...
It is simply not explanable that if John 6 is Jesus teaching of the true nature of the eucharist, that John does not mention the Lords Table in the Upper Room Discourse. The only gospel that does not mention the Lords Table is John.
Catholics have never had an even remotely cogent explanation for this contradiction; but they merely hand wave it away with a simple "the other gospels covered that already, John didnt need to."
Nice fractal image, but the title and statement are absent of any argument, just a “you’re wrong, you’re wrong, and you’re really, really, really, wrong!”. I realize, of course, that it was meant to be some kind of humorous insult, but to be an insult (or even funny) there has to be some essential truth within the context of the insult - but, there isn’t in this case - only the “you’re wrong and really, really wrong” idea.
As I said before, I have no anger toward Catholics, in fact, I appreciate the contribution the Catholic church has made to preserving Biblical manuscripts, to helping the poor and destitute, to standing up for the sacredness of human beings from conception to old age, to art, music, and architecture.
We even share several essential doctrines: Who is God, what is man, who is Christ, what was His mission, His Incarnation, His life, crucifixion, burial, and Resurrection, and that it is through Christ alone that salvation and reconciliation is possible with God.
The Transubstantiation doctrine is one of those non-essential beliefs (from the protestant point of view) that will forever separate protestants and Catholics. We are still brothers and sisters in Christ because we hold the same view of Christ and the Trinity. My only reason for responding is because I disagreed with the thesis of the original article. I knew there wouldn’t be any resolution, but I couldn’t let something I thought to be erroneous in regard to Biblical theology just go without at least voicing an objection.
Now, this insult, the “Sugar-coated Yopios”, is an example of true humor in that there is at least some truth to it - therefore there is some humor.
But, the problem is, this is also a gross simplification of all Reformation theology - that there is no accountability for teaching false doctrines from the Bible. Our accountability will always be from God Himself - which has always been the case - whether Catholic or Protestant.
Another problem with your “Yopios” joke is that the same charge can be leveled at Catholic interpretation as well. Is not the Pope a human being like all of us? Are the Cardinals also human beings as well? Aren’t you taking their word for it that what they say is from God?
Catholicism has a strong authoritarian structure when the Pope makes his pronouncements in behalf of God, but again, aren’t you taking it on faith that he is not just giving his own personal views on these pronouncements regarding Biblical doctrine and teaching? So, whether it’s just some uneducated Joe Blow who is making claim to Biblical teaching or if it is from a duly elected man to the position of Pope, it is still a matter of interpretation from an individual, or an individual organization. Both can be just as equally wrong.
There are definitely tried and true methods (hermeneutics and exegesis) to accurately interpreting the Bible - i.e. context, translation, historical setting, etc. So, you’re “Youpios” is incorrect in it’s thesis that all reformation believers are free to interpret the Bible any way they want. Most Protestant denominations DO NOT believe that. They believe that ALL believers can and should read and study the Bible, and, that ALL believers can learn to accurately interpret Scripture - but, with the understanding that others can examine their line of reasoning and whether or not they have indeed followed legitimate Biblical exegesis.
All of us fall under God’s authority - it is to HIM alone that we must give an answer for what we do and say in His Name.
“Throw away the Catechism” and we get the Babel of Protestantism.
This is the codification of the teachings of Christ handed to Peter, his Apostles and their successors- a lasting truth till the end of time.
Not the stupid nonsense of Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rev. Schullers, Re. Sharptons, Billy Grahams and the Joel Osteens, and every Tom. Dick, and Harry corner-street pastor who think they can crack open the Bible (which by the way did not fall from the skies but were books compiled by the early Church Fathers) and “authoritatively” deliver the one tee message of the Christ.
This is why intellectuals of every stripe from every other non-Catholic faith have finally realized the error of their thinking and converted to Catholicism.
What remains are low-informed “Christian” voters. who are kool-aid feed with incoherent and random scriptural passages to advance the rot taught by Luther, Calvin, and Wesley. Oh, and even Henry VIII!. These are all wild mushrooms growing around the large mustard tree, mushrooms upon which the lowly insects feed on while the soaring eagles settle on the large branches of the mustard tree.
The day is young. And while using FR as an publicity organ for Rome, they complain about being persecuted when the presumptions of elitist Rome are challenged. Every few hours we see something on the pope.
the Lord does not proselytize but loves. Monday, January 6, 2014 9:40:37 AM
Mexican vigilante gunmen disarm local POLICE so they can rid town of ... drug cartel Around 600 members of local 'autodefensas', or self-defence groups, stormed Paracuaro in the troubled Michoacan state yesterday in an attempt to seize control of the town back from the feared Caballeros Templarios (Knights Templar) drug cartel. The battle was the latest in a long-running war between the drugs...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_Cartel: On 17 March 2012 in the state of Guanajuato, the Knights Templar Cartel put up several banners on bridges welcoming the Pope Benedict XVI, and pledging to not provoke any violent acts during the pope's visit.[8] The 14 banners read the following: “ The Knights Templar Cartel will not partake in any warlike acts, we are not killers, welcome Pope
Time for the daily delusion, a 45 minute ritual that is not the Lord's supper described in Scripture, but is an example of Christianized paganism.You're off by 20 minutes; have you ever attended a daily Mass?
Oh yes, i forgot, its not even 45 minutes! What a fantasy service! Yet you will never see a NT pastor in the church titled "priest," officiating over a service, and changing a wafer of bread into human flesh and dispensing it to the people. Egregious extrapolation must be engaged in by RCs in trying to support it in both cases.
While what is seen is the Lord Supper as a memorial, in which the Lord's death is shown, proclaimed, via a communal meal, with the unity of the church with Christ and each other being the focus, not the nature of the elements, and thus individual eating is a denial of the Lord's supper. See here on 1Cor. 11:17-33
What an argument! By that logic Islam must be true. But a remnant shall be saved. A few RCs even.
How dare you not take that as literally physically! After all, doesn't John and the rest of Scripture teach spiritual life and eternal life is gained by physically ingesting human flesh? Why should we be different from pagans?
Endocannibalism is most often an expression of veneration of the dead, or the pursuit of consuming some esoteric aspect of the person, like the deceased's wisdom.
The Fore peoples of Papua New Guinea had a strongly codified type of endocannibalism as part of funerary rites. In this tribe, women and children played the largest role in cannibalism among deceased Fore males. - http://people.howstuffworks.com/cannibalism2.htm
Alpers and Lindenbaum's research conclusively demonstrated that kuru [neurological disorder] spread easily and rapidly in the Fore people due to their endocannibalistic funeral practices, in which relatives consumed the bodies of the deceased to return the "life force" of the deceased to the hamlet, a Fore societal subunit. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%28disease%29#Transmission
What is an NT pastor? Are you pleased with your new denomination (or non-denom)?
Number of reasons, probably...The biggest one being being taught that they have control over their destiny...Most non Christians don't think they are bad enough to go to hell...Catholics appear to think just a little fine tuning on their part will cinch the deal...
Just the idea that you guys have nothing to confess for months at a time is a sure indicator of that...
Quite clearly, many feel that just being on the team is good enough for a flight home...I have talked to numerous Catholics who believe that...And that apparently is what they are taught...
Most of the Catholic crew obviously don't take your rules seriously...This can be seen by the way they vote and live...It's easy...Just do some good works and you are home free...
I'll bet that if serious Catholics only were counted, your religion wouldn't number a quarter the size it is now...
It's easy to be Catholic...You don't have to repent...You just have to do a little penance now and again...You don't have to have a change of heart, just show up and get some water sprinkled on you and you're on your way to purgatory...
It is not private interpretation but THE interpretation of the 1st, and 2nd and 3rd Century Christians who were much closer to the source than we are. It was THE interpretation for 1500 years
I see. Seeing then that one must believe in the Real Presence and receive the Eucharist in order to have life in them, and eternal life, then V2 changed that, as it now allows baptized Prots as part of the body of Christ, possessing the Holy Spirit of God. No wonder no RC was so brave or honest as to answer my question.
“This IS my Body, This IS my Blood.”
You’re sounding like Bill Clinton.
And as Jesus was ascending to heaven, he could hear Peter back off in the distance:
....but Lord, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiitttttttttt...Did you want us to turn the bread into your flesh, You didn't saaaaaaayyyyyyy,,,,,and you never told us HOW to turn the bread into your flesh....Lord, waaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiittttt......
That avoids the problem with yours, while it is not surprising you do not know, unless you are being insolent. It is an ordained man, normally married as most all the apostles were (even Paul likely was at one time), "one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?, (1 Timothy 3:4-5) among other things as per the apostolic qualifications laid down. And who are called pastors, elders/overseers, never titled "priests." And a yes i am pleased about having such.
And their normal function to minister to the flock by preaching the word and prayer, by not administering physical food. (Acts 6:2-4; 20:28)
What are the pastors in your church called? And are they usually married, having their children in subjection.., or do they presume almost all have the gift of continence in celibacy, and must take a vow to remain such as pastors, and never were prepared for such a role by having a physical family? Is their main function that of providing human flesh as giving spiritual life?
Time for you to answer questions rather than avoid issues.
What remains are low-informed “Christian” voters. who are kool-aid feed with incoherent and random scriptural passages to advance the rot taught by Luther, Calvin, and Wesley. Oh, and even Henry VIII!. These are all wild mushrooms growing around the large mustard tree, mushrooms upon which the lowly insects feed on while the soaring eagles settle on the large branches of the mustard tree.
Well spread your wings, Pharisee....
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.