Posted on 12/28/2013 3:59:04 PM PST by NYer
2nd attack on spelling:)Must be doing something right.Thank you.
ansel12:
There are 2 types of excommunication, the formal one (ferendae sententiae, which is done by a formal process and usually deals with Bishops and Priests who attack Doctrines and Church Authority) and the informal one. Any Catholic persisting in grave sin is in the informal sense, excommunicated latae sentential. Among the acts that incur this type of excommunication are apostasy from the Faith, causing heresy or schism, which a lay person can do and procuring an abortion [which is the one that most link to Kennedy because of his support for abortion rights). Now, whether he ever paid for a family members abortion or had a relationship with a woman and paid for her abortion is something that only God Knows. The other ones are violation of the Eucharist [again a lay Catholic can do that, although God forbid one who does that], attacking the Pope [laity can do that thus be subject to it] and episcopal consecration with Papal approval, absolution of an accomplice and breaching he seal of confession. The last 3 are only applicable to Priests and Bishops.
So if one maintains that Kennedy by his actions and political beliefs was promoting heresy, schism, etc, then one can make the argument that Kennedy was excommunicated in the informal sense. Still, excommunications are meant to correct the individual and lead them back so again, if Kennedy did make a proper Confession before he died, as a Catholic, I believe God’s Grace is big enough to forgive Ted Kennedy, despite all of his failings in life. Given that he did have a Funeral Liturgy, one would think he did on his death bed make a Good Confession with a good Act of Contrition.
I believe Peter and Paul said once for all for a reason. So yes I will go with their judgment on the matter.
To stake a core doctrinal claim on a similtude is thin theology. The verses prior set the conditions for the similtude. If we go back two chapters Jesus Christ says this:
John 4:10-24 NASB
Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw.” He said to her, “Go, call your husband and come here.” The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.” The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
1 Peter 5:1-4 NASB
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
“you are not making sense either, as the priest would hardly be standing on it, as that would be objectionable to put himself standing on it.”
Exodus 20:25-26 NASB
If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it. And you shall not go up by steps to My altar, so that your nakedness will not be exposed on it.’
Judging by the grand public displays for Kennedy’s faithful Catholicism, held by the Catholic denomination, it doesn’t look like he was excommunicated.
Yes, but for the LOVE OF CHRIST, please stop looking freakin’ illiterate when you are trying to represent church teaching. Because if I was a protestant, I’d look at your posting and think “illiterate, probably has no clue what they are talking about.”
“If you were grasping for the word SANCTUARY, then I would agree. They do not address it enough, in a way that makes people admit there is such a thing as sin and they need to examine their lives and go to confession.”
Hebrews 9:1-28 NABRE
Now [even] the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was constructed, the outer one, in which were the lampstand, the table, and the bread of offering; this is called the Holy Place. Behind the second veil was the tabernacle called the Holy of Holies, in which were the gold altar of incense and the ark of the covenant entirely covered with gold. In it were the gold jar containing the manna, the staff of Aaron that had sprouted, and the tablets of the covenant.
Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the place of expiation. Now is not the time to speak of these in detail. With these arrangements for worship, the priests, in performing their service, go into the outer tabernacle repeatedly, but the high priest alone goes into the inner one once a year, not without blood that he offers for himself and for the sins of the people. In this way the holy Spirit shows that the way into the sanctuary had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place. This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings: regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order. But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God. For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.
Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive. Thus not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. When every commandment had been proclaimed by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves [and goats], together with water and crimson wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is ‘the blood of the covenant which God has enjoined upon you.’” In the same way, he sprinkled also the tabernacle and all the vessels of worship with blood. According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
Don’t know where you live but I get constant news articles from family in NY of Parish consolidations, school closures and property sell offs. Maybe you live in an area benefiting from consolidation. Or a populous Roman Catholic area. Maybe it is a North East issue.
On the other hand in Florida the Roman Catholic churches seem to be growing with the baby boomers retiring down there. Funny note is my mom noted how many new young people were in her church. She is mid 80s and was referring to all the youngsters in their 60s and 70s:)
Wow, if things are so horrible at your parish, you need to find a new one so that you don’t have to grit your teeth through the entire mass. That kind of thing doesn’t go everywhere.
Here I thought only Prots and Evangelicals promoted easy believism. Go figure. But your right if Kennedy had a thief on the cross moment then the scriptures are clear on God's Grace:
Romans 10:6-13 NABRE
But the righteousness that comes from faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘Who will go down into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Hint: The priest DOES NOT “offer himself repeatedly.” I don’t know where you got that codswallop from, but you are in ignorance of the faith.
Galatians 1:6-12 NABRE
I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by [the] grace [of Christ] for a different gospel (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! Am I now currying favor with human beings or God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.
Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin. For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Wow that is a horrible way to treat a fellow congregant. And using the Lord’s Name in vain as well. There is use for the PM function. I think you should apologize to fatima.
The “codswallop” you are responding to is Hebrews 9. From your NASBRE. You extracted an incomplete understanding from the text, or did you think I posted commentary?
The entire chapter goes into detail the differences between the old and new covenants.
I've been there - St. Vincent dePaul in San Francisco. Some of the laity can't stand her. Some of the laity - and most importantly, the pastor - love her.
I started as a Catholic and totally missed the message, even after baptism, confession, first communion and confirmation. The real message got lost in all the noise of the religion. I believe that’s why so many are leaving some of the churches - religion takes a lot more time and effort and the message of Christ is what many hearts yearn to hear over all the “extras”. The Bible tells us what the great news and reality of Grace is and tells us how to become saved in Christ - it makes it the personal relationship it is meant to be and does not require priest or others to intercede in order to make the “magic” happen. IMO, that’s one of the reasons so many non-denominational churches are cropping up and thriving - more time and energy in the message and no wasting so much time on the “rules” which are inferred from scripture and other sources, but enumerated and “defined” withing the various religions.
I’m included in that statistic. Molested by a priest in the 70s, told it was my word against his, then asked to leave the church. The series of events nearly cost my life. Turned out this priest was a serial predator and was allowed to get away with it. years later I was invited back. never again, I learned my lesson.
The Orthodox Churches, stalwart in their retention of Tradition, are also leaking membership. The problem is, as Cardinal Ratzinger pointed out, the "isms" prevalent in contemporary society.
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