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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
No, it really isn’t the claim of either Jesus or Paul. There is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit must be given by the “laying on of hands.” That’s just your assumption, reading the “laying on of hands”

Nah, that's the plain reading of the text and the practice of the 1st century church. That's the way it was done except for the two instances of the first gentile Christians and the first jewish Christians receiving his spirit. Unless you were one of those two small groups in scripture there was no other way specified by which the holy spirit is given. You're making assumptions that someone else MUST have gotten it a different way with no evidence whatsoever.

You do not actually explain all of the scripture, such as, 1) the offering of salvation to any who believe, which is not compatible with your view.

That changes nothing to the premise of salvation any who believes. But clearly scripture puts forth the need for obedience but let's not go down that rabbit hole again.

2) The fact that not all those who received the Spirit or were saved had hands laid on them. 3)

We'll disagree because scripture shows that receiving the spirit of God is not equivalent to being saved.

The fact that signs and wonders accompanied the giving of the Spirit in those days,

Signs and wonder were for the early church...to make a statement in world that knew nothing about Christ.

4) That the Spirit is said to be sovereign in regeneration, moving as He “listeth” during Christ’s explanation to Nicodemus about the necessity of being born again.

Don't disagree..without the spirit of God there is no regeneration.

5) The Prevenient action of the Holy Spirit prior to salvation, which is not accomplished through the laying on of hands.

That's true...God works with people before they become believers. This agency is described quite a bit in the old testament but it's a completely different aspect then having the indwelling spirit of the Lord.

It says he went to paradise “this day” with Christ. Unless paradise is another word for hell, the Thief is in quite good hands.

What is paradise?

21 posted on 12/22/2013 5:35:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; All

“You’re making assumptions that someone else MUST have gotten it a different way with no evidence whatsoever.”


I have presented evidence. Cornelius and his family, and the Thief on the cross. And, really, every believer, since the work of conversion is itself committed by the Holy Spirit.

“That changes nothing to the premise of salvation any who believes. But clearly scripture puts forth the need for obedience”


This merely places grace, which is by definition gratuitous, at the price of meriting it through obedience to certain church authorities. If grace is grace, it cannot be earned, but can only be received as the free gift of God.

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And it is by grace that we are saved, and not by works.

Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

If salvation requires obedience to the UCG in having their ministers place hands on you in order to receive salvation, then the promise is not to any who believe, nor is it by grace, nor is it by the will of God. It is by the will of men. It is to any who believes and becomes a member of your church, and obediently obeys all their laws. In which case, everyone else who believes, but is a member of any other church on Earth, is damned.

“We’ll disagree because scripture shows that receiving the spirit of God is not equivalent to being saved.”


Receiving the Spirit of God, in the sense that you argue, is regeneration. If we are not regenerated, then we are still old creatures and are under the law and sin, and cannot be saved, since Christ says “no man can see the Kingdom of heaven” unless they are born again. As you say here: “Don’t disagree..without the spirit of God there is no regeneration.”

“Signs and wonder were for the early church...to make a statement in world that knew nothing about Christ.”


So it can just as easily be said, since the laying on of hands was not necessary for every person to receive in order to receive the Spirit, such as Cornelius and his family, as has been seen before, that all these instances, which were followed by marvelous signs and wonders, were also for the outward showing of the power of God in His ministers.

The “third” heaven, that is, the highest heights beyond physical creation, where Paul was caught up to:

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Compare:

2Co_12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And again:

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It is the place of eternal bliss for all the righteous, as the Jews commonly use the term:

From Dr. Gill’s Commentary, referencing Nishma Chayim, par. 1. c. 10. fol. 25. 2. &c.:

“It was usual with the Jews to call heaven “the garden of Eden”, or paradise; and which they (n) sometimes speak of as upper and lower; the lower they suppose the souls of men are introduced into, immediately upon their dissolution; where they stay a while, and then go up to the upper paradise, the world of souls, where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are.”


23 posted on 12/22/2013 5:59:30 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: DouglasKC; All

Oops, I forgot to quote “What is paradise?” Before I gave the answer “heaven,” using Paul as my prooftext.


24 posted on 12/22/2013 6:02:21 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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