Posted on 12/21/2013 11:13:29 AM PST by GonzoII
>>The issue is how do you know he”repents with every ounce of his being”? But let’s assume that he does. I agree, there is a transformation because if he really repents and believes he is then indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Can he return to his life or sin? Sadly it happens sometimes, but it doesn’t last. The Holy Spirit won’t allow him to forget that he is a son living in a pigpen!
I don’t know. I only know what he says. He says that he felt the presence of God at that revival, so he gave his life to Christ. Then, a few days later, it wore off and he says that he felt like God abandoned him. He’s waited for decades to get that “feeling” back and it isn’t there. So, he figures that the “God thing didn’t take” so there’s no reason to change.
Now, we can give him all the Christan platitudes in the world, but he doesn’t believe them because thinks he got sold a bill of goods at that revival (that all he had to do was say that prayer and he would automatically change) and now he thinks he got ripped off.
Yes, it’s irrational, but that’s what he thinks and perception is reality.
Question: How many of your sins were in the future when Christ died for them?
Answer: All of them.
I see! Will you please tell your friend that, if he honestly gave his life to God, he is saved whether he feels it or not? Salvation is not a feeling, although many times in our spiritual journeys we overflow with wonderful feelings... but other times we struggle through the valleys and keep on moving by faith. That is what God knew it was going to happen to believers sooner or later, so He had John write in his first letter: “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God”. Basically, we can know that we are saved, even during those times when we don’t feel like we are. So, tell him to stop waiting for the feeling to come back and rejoice in the knowledge that he is saved, always saved. You say that he won’t believe anything we tell him, but please tell him that. And ask him to read 1 John 5:13. He can KNOW, he does not need to FEEL.
Catholics cannot lose what they never had, though most still end up as if they did lost it, but which they apparently cannot even make a case for doing, as Heb. 6 can be attributed to those who were never saved.
There are other texts which warn believers of of falling from grace, making Christ of no effect by later assent to a false gospel, and of having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, and drawing back into perdition, forfeiting what faith appropriated, ( Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:38) though there are some texts which provide support for the premise that those whom God gave to Christ shall not be finally lost. (Jn. 6:35-40)
But most Catholics are in need of being born again in the first place.
Indeed it is not..
When did God move Michael from protector of Israel to protector of Rome? Could you tell me the Book, chapter, and verse?
All men are sinners..it is not sin that condemns one to hell ..it is not having a Savior
By that reasoning, everyone is saved since we are cut out of the equation. No one is discounting what Christ did.
Jerome was saved today, now he can go back to trading cocaine to kids for sex knowing that Jesus has his back.
(I don’t think so)
What part of “Go and sin no more” do people grapple with??
So you are not sure if he was a Christian, and not knowing much else about him, as an atheist you conveniently assume calling yourself a Christian, as liberal pols even do, means you had a salvation to lose.
There were radical changes in heart after i became born again as a Catholic at age 25, which was not expected or seen among others i personally knew, or a conversion the RC church preached. Which lack i naively could not understand at first, but i found fellowship with evangelical types. Thank God.
As a Baptisterian I believe that OSAS is a corrupt doctrine of POTS. Here is what the Westminster Confession states:
I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
Mat. 7:24, 25; John 13:1; 1 Peter 1:4-6; Isa. 49:13-16
When the doctrine of "free will" (man making a choice) came about, this corrupted the POTS doctrine since man by his own volition could make another choice to be separated from God. This causes problems, especially with those who believe in eternal security. Thus the only solution was OSAS in which one has free will and eternal security. The only problem with this is it doesn't make any sense. It never has to me even before I was a Reformer. If you can make a choice for God, then you can make a choice to leave God. This is pure Armenian belief. Those who like to believe in free will cannot explain this problem. I never could.
Once a person understands that it is God that saves us, then eternal security is a given because God will never leave us or forsake us.
no, it’s not. You can lose your salvation when you do things like that, you are choosing to surrender it
No, they were not saved else they would not have done what they did.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Er, what?
You presume too much. I don’t think I’ve mentioned or hinted anywhere in that post what my beliefs are, or falsely portrayed myself as something I’m not.
The incident on TV was a real one, I think Dr. Phil was on it, and regardless, the situation described stands plausible, isn’t beyond the scope of possibilities, and is a test to the OSAS believers. Your rabidly composed reply has no bearing on the argument that this thread was about, but you typed that anyway as an attempt (out of many) to silence any dissent you are begrudgingly forced to bear.
That's absurd propaganda. Rather his sophistry is such that I would invite him to debate even here.
I just don’t believe God to be that stupid. I simply don’t picture Him at the judgment forcing Christ to give a free pass to those who went to their graves rejecting Him. Free will is for a lifetime. It isn’t some one-time event that grants us a get-out-of-hell-free card that once pocketed allows us to ignore God’s purpose in our lives.
Revelations makes it clear that even believers will end up in the burning lake of fire.
And here's what Peter said about it:
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10-11
Then you have a short memory of your scorn for God. Want examples? I have never seen anything from you in our debates that ever indicated you had any belief in God or a god. And it is certain you reject prayer as "redundant nothingness" and eternity.
the situation described stands plausible,
That is what i said, you are not sure.
isn’t beyond the scope of possibilities, and is a test to the OSAS believers. Your rabidly composed reply has no bearing on the argument that this thread was about,
It is indeed what this thread was about, as your argument is that a man had salvation and lost it, thus your response, "Once ‘saved’, always ‘saved’, no?"
But as i expressed, this presumes that calling yourself a Christian means you are one, yet you have no info that would provide evidence that this man was a convert of practicing Christian faith, versus one of the many who call themselves Christian but might as well as liberal secularists insofar as it effects their life.
For your argument to be valid, you need an example of a man who evidenced he was a believer, versus a CINO, then lost his memory of it and adopted a new religion. You especially need this for evangelicals, as we typically when thru much of out life as "Christians" but were ignorant of the relationship with Christ that being born again via personal repentance and faith in the risen Christ. Such as resulted in thousands of hymns expressing this relationship.
but you typed that anyway as an attempt (out of many) to silence any dissent you are begrudgingly forced to bear.
This is another of your tactics often resorted to in your debates, that of engaging in mind reading via attribution of negative motive, but which disqualifies you from the psychic club, as it was not to silence dissent, but to corrected you and your specious polemic. Which it did, even if you may want to avoid that.
Once save always saved is an off shoot of Arminian easy-believism. Looks kind of like this: “Walk the aisle, sign the card, and your are in, no matter what. You made the decision, can’t be revacated.”
Calvinism has God as the one who calls us and through the Holy Spirit guards us from falling away. We may wander for a time, but God will always draw us back.
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