Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
I think the *if-then* is sometimes misinterpreted.
In particular where is says, *If you love me, you will obey my commandments*.
That can be taken two ways.
One that leads to adding works to belief, thinking that that makes it faith that saves. So we try to go about working, working, working, thinking that we are obeying Him thus proving that we love Him. Obeying Him then becomes a burden. OK, Lord. I love you therefore I have to obey you. *sigh*
The other way of looking at it is as a cause and effect thing.
If you love God, the natural outworking of that will be obedience. IOW, if you love Him, you WILL obey His commandments without trying. Not to worry. It’ll happen.
I hope that makes sense.
I had a thought of how to explain that better but it slipped my mind and I just cannot remember what I was going to say. When it comes back, I’ll try again.
Examining whether you be in the faith according to Him excludes Pentecostals. As Christianity was established without such attestation thru gifts given by God, and as if such were superfluous today - despite the aberrations.
Hey good evening. Hope you had a chance to read the entire sermon series like everyone else.
Thanks for the ping, and although i have not been following this thread, being "in the faith" is like getting with the program. And to be in the Lord Jesus you must be "in" the faith, versus out of it.
What you do is an expression of what you believe, which as regards Christian faith, testifies to what is not seen.
1 John provides for assurance that one has eternal life based on characteristic attributes of a believer. And by which evidence Paul knew the Thessalonians were elect, (1Ths. 1) as they manifested "things which accompany salvation." In contrast, due to the lack of such testimony, and impenitence from things contrary to faith, Paul stood in doubt of such Corinthians.
We all quote from Paul’s epistles so often because he is the Apostle of the Gentiles, and the forming of the Body of Christ was given to him, not Peter and the 11. We quote from Paul because we live in the dispensation of the grace of God. John, Peter, James all belong to the gospel of the kingdom, dealing with Israel, the tribulation, and the Kingdom that is to be established when Christ the Messiah returns. That is why James (faith and works) is trotted out so often to refute Paul’s gospel of the grace of God (faith alone). They are not the same. One is for a kingdom of believers. The other is for a body of believers.
Once people begin to internalize the “rightly dividing” idea it makes things so much clearer. It’s like those who don’t understand the coming 7 year tribulation and the return to God dealing with Israel.
LOL I think God took over and gave the words. That explanation was exactly right.
No, that was a perfect explanation. The first approach you mentioned with the person “sighing” smacks of someone looking to justify themselves and are not transformed to a new creature.
The second example you gave was that of a transformed new creature who WANTS to obey Him, Serve Him, and Share Him. It is the “open the eyes of my hear Lord” approach.
Well, when the term *the faith* has reached the point of being a religious system as it seems to have done so in our culture and our country, this kind of message lends itself to a sort of legalism where we get out our check list of do’s and don’t’s, and if we can check off all the right boxes, we can be sure we’re in.
I guess the way the term has been used by some leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I hate to say that about how someone uses Scripture, but I think that verse, used alone, doesn’t carry the same meaning as in context.
Which is also expressed by James dealing with dead faith.
I agree. I keep thinking of the two sites you posted the other day. I listened to the first which was from the conference and was rather troubled in my spirit. Then I listened to the one from the pastor and it was truly an eye opener. It may have hit me at the right time or something but the words of the pastor spoke to my heart. I think he nailed it. Like you said it’s the in context thing.
"And when JAMES, CEPHAS (PETER), and JOHN, who seemed to be pillars, perceived THE GRACE that was GIVEN UNTO ME, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that WE should go unto the heathen (Gentiles), and THEY UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION." (Gal. 2:9).
Now look at the Books that are NOT written by Paul from the NT: PETER, JAMES,and the Books of JOHN. Interesting, huh!
God leaves NOTHING to chance or for us to have to guess at. Peter, John, and James were writing TO THE CIRCUMCISION. As is clearly backed up in Gal.
BTW: Jude was also written to the last day saints, Israel.
That passage needs to be repeated every time we get into discussions that need that understanding. It clearly tells us who each is addressing. It is so important to our understanding of scripture.
I know about rightly dividing. However, I would not go so far as to say the same Jews (Peter, James, John) who were filled with the same Holy Spirit as Paul, Cornelius and the rest of the Gentiles are under a different Grace or plan of salvation. Paul even says both Jew and Greek (Gentile).
So I don’t want to take your post incorrectly. Are you saying there are some (kingdom gospel) that are faith+works and others (grace gospel) are faith only? But one Holy Spirit, one Sacrifice?
I have studied Darby and a few other dispensationalists. I think they get “dividing the Word” right for correctly interpreting prophecy. No where did I see Darby or Walvoord, Ryrie and others (maybe Chaefer) “divide” the Age of Grace between two plans of Salvation.
I know Darby and many dispensationalists to include Ryrie get accused by many of doing just that “divid the gospel message.” They all deny it (maybe not Chaefer) and I believe them.
You need to understand that the believers today as well as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be taken from this world at the rapture. The last seven years (the tribulation) will be more along the lines of the old covenant. It WILL be important for people during that seven years to focus on their acts/works because there will be no indwelling or “Christ in them”.
I meant to ping you to 76.
The “age of grace” ends at the rapture.
I'm going to take a shot at this because I think it's not coming across correctly.
Is what you're asking whether there are two plans for salvation simultaneously? One for the Gentiles and one for the Jews?
Because that's what it sounds like you're asking.
As I understand it, (and smvoice will probably need to correct it) there is the gospel of the Kingdom, which is for the Jews, in which baptism and works played a role in salvation. It was first offered to the Jews. The Jews rejected it, and then we moved into the times of the Gentiles, the age of grace, where all, Jew and Greek alike, as saved only through faith, without works including baptism.
Once the church is removed from the earth in the rapture, the time of the Gentiles, the age of grace, will be at an end, and then the rules of the kingdom will be in place, by which salvation is determined by how the persons faith works out.
That's my stab at it.
Paul's first six Epistles (1 and 2 Thess.; Gal.; 1 and 2 Cor.; and Rom.) are those whereby he went to the Jew first (Rom. 1:16 with Acts 13:5,14,46). He performed many miracles, signs and wonders (Acts 19:12) and legal ceremonies (Acts 16:3-4), ...."because of the Jews")(Acts 16:3) with (1 Cor. 9:20-23; 10:32).
Paul also had a ministry of revelation, preaching the unprophesied riches of Christ, the gospel of uncircumcision. The Church the body of Christ was GRADUAL in its growth. In Antioch, Acts 13:46 (45 A.D.), in Corinth, Acts 18:6 (54 A.D.0, and finally at Rome, Acts 28:27-28, (63 A.D.). HERE is where we see God making the transition from the Jewish age to the Church Age.
The Book of Acts is a transitional Book. From the kingdom age of believers to the body of believers, the Church the body of Christ. There is not a sudden poof, where one day it's one way, then it suddenly changes. It's a transition from Law to Grace. And Paul perfectly fits the person to receive the revelations of this from the risen Christ.
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