Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
And he said unto them, Ye KNOW how that it IS an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of ANOTHER NATION; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." (Acts 10:28)).
So when did God show Peter this? The great commission that was given to him? The day of Pentecost? No. In the vision that He gave Peter for Cornelius. Which BTW, Paul had just been saved in Acts 9. So God showed Peter this AFTER He saved Paul. And it was NOT an error, it was God's dealing with Israel and offering the kingdom to Israel if they would proclaim Christ as Messiah. The good news of the kingdom.
I’m curious here. Do you believe that Israel is still a set aside nation in that God will deal with them as a separate nation again after the rapture? You may have indicated the answer to that before and I missed it.
How do you reconcile these verses???
Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
When we began this discussion various posters said Paul was given revelations (true) and that Jesus Christ revealed to Paul "the mystery." It was put forward that this mystery was a gospel of Grace not previously known and that those Jews who were believers and present since Pentecost were under a different program than grace. They had to repent where the Gentiles did not have to repent. The timeframe one poster gave was this new program or dispensation happened around the epistle of Ephesians.
Most NT scholars (a sample of 37 total) put Ephesians between 60 AD and 62 AD (ref. errantskeptics.org-Dr. Gary Butner). So for the sake of establishing a stake in the ground we can say the average of 61 AD. The Jerusalem council and Cornelius' conversion were roughly 10 years earlier in 50AD, some say perhaps as early as 48 AD. When presenting scriptures that showed grace was being preached earlier, the position changed on this thread for an earlier date. Another fact presented is Romans was penned by Paul at an earlier time (2-3 years) than Ephesians and Romans chapter 3 clearly preaches grace. So the position of a new dispensation at the time of Ephesians was abandoned by most here.
Then the position was raised that there were two programs or gospels because God was giving the Jews a second chance to usher Him in as King. When I and others asked when God gave His final "set aside of Israel" ending the kingdom program and began the grace program we were told Acts 28 where Paul tells the Jews this:
28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves. 30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.
When I and others pointed out that (1) Paul in Acts 28 kept preaching the kingdom of God and that (2) Paul had a very same encounter with Jews in Acts 13, the timeline by others shifted to the left (earlier again).
At this point it was put forward that there were two simultaneous programs or dispensations going on. One for Jews and one for Gentiles. Those holding that view now said the mystery of the Gentile grace dispensation or program was given to Paul between the day of his conversion and up to the three years he spent in Arabia. That would put us around the time of Acts 9 & 10.
Linked to this particular subject (two programs) was roughly the same time of the conversion of Cornelius and his household (Gentiles). I asked what gospel Peter preached to the Gentiles and was told it was works based and that was the same gospel preached of repentance and works at Pentecost (Acts 2) and on the portico of Solomon (Acts 3). When I pointed out that Peter calls the gospel received by Cornelius as grace and the same one they (Jews) received, I was told the Jerusalem council was formed to dispute the two gospels or programs or dispensations. When I posted the actual words of the council using Peter's own words this is what we see. Acts 15:
“Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
From this I pointed out that Peter claims no distinction and both parties, Jews and Gentiles, are saved "through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ." This however resulted in another shift of when the programs or dispensations or gospels changed or sharpened.
Then the shift in opinion became that the gospel or program of repentance+works+faith was gradually phased out and we cannot put a "definite" date or event other than Paul talks about grace in his epistles and that must be when the change happened. So the timeline shifts again for some posters ten years future from the Jerusalem council even though Peter states saved by grace at the very same council.
Then I offered to revisit the point in post Resurrection history where Israel (the Jews) were finally rejected or set aside and ushered in the new program of grace. Again a mixed bag of answers so I offered Matthew 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
I could have presented an earlier chapter and time in Matthew as in chapter 12, but the passage directed towards Jerusalem in chapter 23 is clear and are the Words of the Master Himself. We see in Matthew 16 how Christ has set aside Israel and her leaders to establish the foundation for His church and that is Peter's confession. Which would lead us to believe all who are part of the Body of Christ will make the same confession.
I was told however, that Jesus really did not mean Jerusalem in that chapter 23 passage but was addressing the Pharisees. I will let everyone examine the text for themselves and see if Pharisee=Jerusalem.
Over 400 posts thusfar for the thread and there is no agreement or certainty on when (space and time) or where in the Acts of the Apostles chapter or passage in context, when this Jewish kingdom faith+works+repentance ends for saved by grace through faith. Several scripture references by me and others showed there is no difference at all in the gospel delivered to Jew or Greek (Gentile). However the contention then became repenting and being baptized are somehow works and have no place in a grace gospel. When pointed out that Paul and Peter both preached repentance, the answers were "yes but the repentance part was for Jews only."
Then I thought it best for all of us to return to the Source of the Gospel...Jesus Christ. I posted again from Luke 24:
“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
I pointed out that Jesus said in the above passage that the apostles were directed to preach Christ crucified, Risen "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations..." I bolded "all nations" every time I posted Luke 24. So the conversation shifted to if the command above by Jesus was either side stepped by the apostles (surely not!) or superceded by Jesus when He gave revelations to Paul (surely not!). And I say surely not! Because we know Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
Therefore that is my position based on examining the Scriptures. Jesus gave us the gospel in Luke 24 (as posted above). He opened the minds of the apostles to understand this message from the scriptures (Isaiah 53 is one example). Grace is no mystery to us today nor was it a mystery to Peter, the 11 and the Jewish believers. They received and accepted the same gospel preached by Paul before Paul was converted. The apostles knew full well that Grace=The Finished Work of Jesus Christ: the torture, shed blood, death, burial, resurrection and Ascension to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father. That same gospel was preached from Pentecost and following with no break in program. The scriptures support this and are consistent on this one gospel, one program for the Body of Jesus Christ in the Church age.
If someone would like to further the debate and take up the cause that Jesus Christ changed His message of salvation after two decades of adding souls to His Body I will await those comments. If someone would like to further the debate and take up the cause that Jesus Christ in Luke 24 is preaching a gospel only for the circumsized (the Jews) and that the 4 Gospels are only for those early Jews, I will await those comments. Why? Because the debate has been boiled down to whether or not Jesus Christ meant what He said:
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
Perhaps those who adhere to a two church dispensation, mid Acts or later dispensation should choose a "champion" to further the cause. The above was necessary to point out I and others have dealt with multiple views that have shifted frequently thoughout the thread.
I know no one is questioning each other's salvation. Alas, for the clear message saved by Grace through faith we here in the 21st century are on the "right hand side" (space and time) to the debate at hand. However, I must caution, we are putting doubts on Jewish brothers and sisters who actually met and walked physically on earth with Christ and saying that perhaps they did not drink from the same Well which gives us Living Water. That is why I continue, for them for as I examine the Word, they received the same gospel with all its Fullness, Joy and Security.
"In the beginning God created the HEAVEN (singular) and the EARTH." Gen. 1:1.
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, BOTH of which are IN HEAVEN (singular), and which are ON EARTH; even IN HIM." (Eph. 1:10).
He created the heaven for a reason. He created the earth for a reason. He has a heavenly people (The Church the Body of Christ). He has an earthly people (Israel). All are IN CHRIST. But they are NOT in the same place. For His reasons. And glory. One is the mystery. One is prophecy. One is a kingdom of believers. One is a Body of believers. For His reasons. And Glory.
Yes, I believe after examining the OT and NT that God is not finished with Israel as a people.
Whoa there. Not under a different program. That’s been the misunderstanding as I see it. They were simply not yet aware of the totality of the grace. They still hung on to portions of the Jewish laws and customs. It wasn’t until Paul that they all understood the totality if the gospel of grace. The language use to each group was simply different at first because of the change needed in the thinking of the Jews.
>>So the position of a new dispensation at the time of Ephesians was abandoned by most here.<<
You haven’t been reading my posts with corresponding scriptures have you.
>>At this point it was put forward that there were two simultaneous programs or dispensations going on.<<
There were not two dispensations going on.
The moment Christ ascended into heaven the chances for the Jews as a nation were over.
>>1) Paul in Acts 28 kept preaching the kingdom of God and that<<
No he didn’t. He told them about the Kingdom of God then continued on and explained that they had rejected that.
Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
He wasn’t preaching the kingdom at that point. He was pointing out from the Old Testament what the prophets had said then explained that salvation was now being sent to the Gentiles.
Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
How could you have shown that Paul was preaching the kingdom when he wasn’t?
The rest of that post shows a clear lack of reading any of my posts with attached scripture references. You totally ignored the information I posted. Shame on you.
Now tell me. What is the definition of the Greek word for repent.
Not once was that the case. The only contention is that the 12 apostles clearly did not fully understand the change that had taken place. One only needs to look at the attitude of Peter about going to the house of Cornelius to understand that. You have misrepresented most everything that was shown to you. Again, shame on you.
Just don’t dismiss Yeshua’s words: “he that endures to the end, the same shall be saved.”
They cannot be idle words.
Except He was talking about those alive during the tribulation when He said that not those alive during the church age. And no I won’t continue a discussion about that with you.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
I'm not sure that he misrepresented what was shown to him as that seems to imply deliberate intent.
I've been reading along this discussion and while I am no stranger to the NT, the epistles and Corinthians, by any means, I've found my head spinning with all the dates put forth and what Paul said and what Peter said, and who did what when and for how long. This is some pretty meaty stuff.
Granted, much of the NT makes much more sense when viewed in light of there being different dispensations, one of which gradually replaced the other, and God having a slightly different program for dealing with different people groups, but there are still things which still don't fit neatly.
There are some things that I am just going to have to decide that I am not going to lost sleep over. And I will focus on witnessing on Jesus Christ as the Author and Perfecter of our faith, and reconciling people to God through faith in Him.
Matter of fact, as a result of this thread (IIRC) and a link posted to John MacArthur's *Strange Fire Conference* about the Word of Faith movement, I have been doing some research into that movement and am very alarmed with what I've been uncovering about the New Apostolic Reformation and the Word of Faith movement that has been infiltrating the church.
So I am going to continue to read this thread and glean from it what I can, but not be participating in it.
I too have no doubt about the salvation by grace through faith in Christ of anyone in this discussion.
We will have to agree that we disagree and depart in peace.
God Bless
Well said dear lady! Looks like a good place to bow out of this thread. It has been enlightening.
Reposting Acts 28 where it says (in all Bible versions) here in KJV that he preached the kingdom of God:
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
What was the question Peter asked when they were come together, after 40 days of INFALLIBLE proofs of the resurrection of Christ and the post-resurrection ministry of Christ to the 11?
"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).
THAT'S what was on their minds. THAT'S the burning question Peter and the 10 (Matthias not yet numbered with them) wanted the answer to. NOT Christ dying for their sins. NOT Christ's blood being their redemption, justification, reconciliation to God, being made nigh by the blood of Christ, or the righteousness of God in Him, or even Christ being made to be sin for them. NONE of those things were on their minds. The most pressing thing and urgent thing was "wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"...
That's because they knew NOTHING of the mystery, because it was still hid in God. They knew prophecy only. And according to prophecy, Christ the Messiah was going to return and set up His kingdom and they would be seated on 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Change denotes something different, right? Was that 'change' a change in gospel, dispensation, program? What would you call it? If the point now is everyone to include those on Pentecost were saved by grace through faith but did not fully understand it was grace even though they were saved by grace, then that is another change in position. One that I could agree on. A point I made hundreds of posts ago that perhaps they had 'an' understanding but Paul as the master theologian recorded it and exhorted it to all.
I will politely add you are putting words and thoughts into posts where I make no such claims of Law Vs. Grace. Where we differ is the gospel of Jesus Christ began when He said:
"It is finished."
When Jesus Christ said in Luke chapter 24:
“Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
All nations would receive this good news Jesus delivered to his apostles. It is the same good news given to Paul by Jesus Christ by revelations/visions.
Those Words by Jesus Christ have not and will not pass away:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
No, it has not...It's a matter of understanding what Jesus said, when he said it and to whom it was said...
If someone would like to further the debate and take up the cause that Jesus Christ in Luke 24 is preaching a gospel only for the circumsized (the Jews) and that the 4 Gospels are only for those early Jews, I will await those comments.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The first 3 gospels were written for the Jews, doctrinally...Spiritually, they are for everyone...
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
These people gained their righteousness from doing good works...They are under the law...
Do you know anyone who got saved in this day and age by doing good works like these people do, following the law???
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
These people lose their salvation because they are unrighteousness because they failed to do the necessary works for righteousness...
The people who repented and were baptized for the remission of their sins before Jesus showed up had no idea that Jesus must die, be buried and be resurrected...What gospel were they being taught???
Certainly these people were Sabbath worshiping, pork abstaining, law abiding Jews...At what point were they told their good works would send them to hell???
“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.
I pointed out that Jesus said in the above passage that the apostles were directed to preach Christ crucified, Risen "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations...
So do you contend that this statement and this statement alone will get the modern person into the body of Christ???
However, I must caution, we are putting doubts on Jewish brothers and sisters who actually met and walked physically on earth with Christ and saying that perhaps they did not drink from the same Well which gives us Living Water. That is why I continue, for them for as I examine the Word, they received the same gospel with all its Fullness, Joy and Security.
As I see it, many Protestants refuse to believe and acknowledge there are two dispensations between the death, buriel and resurrection and Rom. 3,Eph. 2 and reject all those multitudes of scriptures in the gospels that show salvation is earned by good works...I guess you don't see them...
At the same time, the Catholic religion (and some Protestants) not only see those scriptures we refer to but embrace them while rejecting a change of dispensation spoken of in Rom. 3 and Eph. 2...They see them because they are there...Their religion is built upon those scriptures...
Apparently you (guys) see only one side while the Catholics see only the other...I see and acknowledge both of them...That's where rightly dividing the truth comes in...
I didn't get this far before I posted more :( Great discussion brothers and sisters...And thanks heaps for your military service redleghunter...
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