Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
Did they have dietary rules? Did they need to be circumcised? Could they eat with Gentiles? Was there a universal change from that after the council at Jerusalem? If there was, which there was, was that a “different gospel then being preached prior to that council?
I really did not intend to point that at our FRiends, using it in a more general sense - But I can see why you took it that way, and for that I am sorry. I will try to be more measured in the future.
Nonetheless the principles necessary for 'rightly dividing' remain. What the Word CAN say is limited by what it CAN'T say.
“Beginning at Jerusalem. And you know that “repentence” i.e. change of mind from not hitting the mark of Jeweism’s rules” didn’t apply to the Jews and “remission of sins” by grace didn’t apply to both Jews and Gentiles how?
>> Here in Acts 11 where Peter recounts the Acts 10 Cornelius conversion:<<
I covered that in my previous post. Peter obviously still thought with a Jewish mind.
>> Then here in Acts 17 we have Paul addressing a Gentile Greek pure audience at the Areopagus saying this about repenting:<<
“a Gentile Greek pure audience”? Well, let’s see.
Acts 17: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
So let’s recap. Paul went into the synagogue of the Jews and there were “devout Greeks” in that synagogue of the Jews. You do realize that the Greeks would NOT have been in that synagogue of the Jews unless they had converted to Judaism right? “Gentile Greek pure audience indeed”. NOT. Those people in that synagogue of the Jews were all of the Jewish religion thus under their rules and laws.
>> Then Paul again in Acts 20:<<
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Repentance for the Jews and faith for both Jews and Gentiles?
>> Acts 26
Covered in my previous post. Addressing a Jewish audience because of Jewish accusations.
>> Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Let’s look at who Paul was talking to there.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
These were people who had “knew God” and had not “retained God”. The needed to “change their mind” or repent. In fact in verse 21 he says “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”
>> 2 Corinthians 7:9<<
Once again, read the previous chapters that lead up to that. He was talking to believers who had become “unequally yoked together with unbelievers”. They needed to “change their minds” or repent from practices and beliefs that they had that he hadn’t taught.
>> 2 Corinthians 12:21<<
One more time. Talking to those same Corinthians.
>>2 Timothy 2:25<<
Speaking about a group that was taking on the wrong practices again.
>>Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,<<
What were those “dead works”? Following some rules again? Maybe even Jewish rules?
>>2 Peter 3:9<<
Who was Peter talking to again? That’s right! The Jewish exiles in other countries.
>>Revelation<<
What did we say about not “rightly dividing” and never understand what is being said in Revelation?
Where in the story of Cornelius was repentance prior to him receiving the Holy Spirit? Not what Peter said in Jerusalem because he injected that at that point.
I think you said something but I don’t know what it was...
The context of the leaven in Galatians 5 is clear:
7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
We all know “Jerusalem” is God’s Holy City, set aside for the Jews and Jesus was talking about the nation of Israel and the Jewish people.
Saying truth is that way. It baffles a lot of listeners.
I guess I was catching you up:) Yes that is my position there is only ONE GOSPEL, ONE Spirit, ONE Body of Christ. That ONE Body was added to from Pentecost and continues to today and will continue until Jesus Christ says stop.
I don’t see Jewish Christians that became “astonished” can be stretched there is a new dispensation. Jesus already told the apostles His gospel was for all nations. The astonishment is more that the Gentiles now had the gospel too rather than the Gentiles were given a “better” dispensation.
We cannot ignore that in more than one place words like “also” and “no distinction” ride over any other assumptions.
There is no evidence Peter and the 11 were following Jewish ceremonial laws that were clearly fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Paul in Galatians recounting the council called what was present “leaven.” That means there were evil influences not ones seen as “ok.” Paul presents that record and Peter agrees. There is no indication two gospels were being preached. We do leave Acts 15 and Galatians with the understanding that there were Jews who were pestering and accusing other Jews and Gentiles for not following the ceremonial laws. Paul rightly points out this is error for all of them because Jesus Christ is the fulfillment. Peter knew this from the very beginning because he walked with Christ and witnessed His death and resurrection. What is clear is that Peter affirms both the Jews and Gentiles were saved the very same way here in Acts 15:
“Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
Peter is talking about Cornelius. By Peter’s admission the first Gentile converts were saved the same way and there was no distinction. At around this time Paul was yet to preach to the Gentiles and was just converted (circa Acts 10 the conversion of Cornelius and his househole—Gentiles). When Peter says “we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they” he was keeping with the same group of the Cornelius Gentile first converts. Which Peter does say to Cornelius and family in Acts 10:
36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Peter preached Christ crucified, died and rose again. And those who “believe in Him will receive remission of sins.” That is exactly the same gospel Paul proclaims in 1 Corinthians 15. And it is this the account of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10 which is attributed the statement “saved in the same manner as they” by grace as Peter stated. The “they” are Cornelius and his household. It is not until Peter finishes this statement that Paul and Barnabas give their testimony to the council.
So if we are to include a separate dispensation and call it the grace dispensation as opposed to Pentecost, then logically it should be Acts 10 and the vision Peter received to bring the gospel of grace to the Gentiles. For we see in Acts 15 Peter tells the group Cornelius and household were “they” who received the gospel of grace: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” Again “they” being in full context of the chapter are Cornelius and household. Prior to Peter’s proclamation, the Judaizers presented their case; then Peter; then Paul and Barnabas.
I will add we have so many NT references the gospel is for Jew and Gentile (Greek). Jesus stated so in Luke 24 and it is no surprise Luke, a companion of Paul uses the same language to communicate One Gospel, One Spirit, One Body of Christ His Church.
The “mystery” we all seem to be hanging on was not such a mystery at all to those after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. In Luke 24 we clearly see Jesus open the disciples’ minds to the scriptures testifying of Him. The mystery of the Messiah as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and many others which also included His resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit. That is the mystery, and that mystery is fully preached by all the apostles. Paul later gets it after or during his conversion. Paul calls it a mystery in his epistles because many most likely received and responded to the gospel but did not know where to find it and understand it. That is why the Bereans searched the scriptures diligently to see if these things were true. And those things “were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me” as Jesus stated in Luke 24.
Now who explained this mystery the best so that everyone in all the years and centuries following would understand? Yes it was Paul. Paul revealed the mystery to those who were already saved by the Grace of God through faith by using his epistles. That is not an admission he was the sole posessor of the mystery. That is proved by Peter in Acts 10 certainly. When Paul says he received the gospel directly from Jesus Christ, Amen he did but he is not setting himself up as presenting something new. People were already being saved by Grace.
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
How is Peter preaching a gospel of works in Acts 10?
42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Where did you get the idea that anyone thought it was not “One Body of Christ”?
I agree and what you posted is exactly how we see the flow of scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. God is Holy, we are not. God desires men and women be reconciled with Him and He provided the Way. That has been the flow of everything since the Fall of man.
No where in Acts is any of that preached as part of salvation. No where in Acts 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and on. The Jerusalem council was to correct an error (Judaizers). Peter never preached that error.
That was your assertion when I presented Acts 26 and Paul preaching to Jews and Gentiles repentance. You said that when Paul preached this that the repent applied to Jews only and the faith applied to Gentiles only.
Or is it that you view that the gospel spoken by Jesus to His disciples for "all nations" was changed or modified when He revealed "the mystery" to Paul?
I didn’t say they did. I was trying to illustrate that the Jews had grown up with those things as rules and laws. That was part of who they were and they kept trying to include them in the new teaching. The Gentiles that had not converted to Judaism had not.
Let’s try it this way. When Jesus was on earth all the ceremonial laws of the Jews were still being adhered to. That was His “example” as He lived prior to His death and resurrection. The twelve apostles as well followed all of the Jewish laws and traditions. What was He preaching? What were the apostles learning? It was the old Jewish laws, traditions, rules etc. Nothing had changed prior to Jesus death and resurrection in their religious practices.
Was there a change after Jesus death and resurrection and His ascention into heaven in the reguirements?
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