Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
The Gospel of Grace is the Finished Work of Jesus Christ. Grace “in action” was the Work of Christ on the Cross and Father raising Him from the dead three days later. The very sacrifice is the Grace we have. Peter and others also preached the same Gospel. The Acts are witness to people responding to Grace.
Are we 100% certain Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit? One can logically come to that conclusion, but doctrine should be derived from multiple God Breathed scripture references. We can hold that belief, but are not certain.
Who directs that the Temple be rebuilt for the time of the last seven years of the 490 years promised the Israelites in Daniel’s prophecy? Never before have the Israelites worshiped any other but God when following the Temple worship per God’s instructions. At the midway point of the Tribulation the anti Christ STOPS the sacrifice. If they were worshiping him why would he do that?
>> We also know from Revelation that there will be martrys for Christ and they are called 'saints' as well.
I don’t think anyone disputes that. There were those in the Old Testament also who were martyred for their faith in God and adherence to His laws.<<
>>If we look at Revelation 11 on the two witnesses it says they will give "testimony." Testimony to what? Given the large amount of OT and NT evidence that message or testimony will be the same one proclaimed at Pentecost, to Cornelius, and in all the epistles. <<
That would be speculation of course. As a matter for consideration the two witnesses prophesy as opposed to proclaim “the same one proclaimed at Pentecost”. By definition it would seem to me they are prophesying what is to befall the world rather than proclaim the gospel.
REVELATION 11: 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Speculation at best. Would you say then that the Holy Spirit was removed when Jesus was born to be reintroduced after He ascended? Surely not.
>>If it is true that Yeshua has conquered, and all His enemies are dust under His feet, then those surviving must be inferred to be at least 'not' his enemies...<<
All his enemies are not “put under his feet” until His kingdom is set up on this earth at the beginning of the millennium after the last battle at Armageddon.
The rest of your post shows a clear misunderstanding of the seven year tribulation and the purpose for it.
No I’m not. There will likely be some of both although it doesn’t really say who those saints will be. They however will not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we do today since He will be “taken out of the way”.
>>but that redemption as a people does not come until Christ returns.<<
I agree with that statement.
I agree that there was no contradiction. That post was in response to the contention that Paul was teaching of following the law and using Hebrews 2 for that belief. I may have put that wrong but I think you misunderstood the reason for my post.
And thus my statement of “If it had been a mystery until the Holy Spirit revealed it to them” and “until the apostles were given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.”
The above...one of the reasons many dismiss dispensationalism for replacement theology. The dispensational theologians do well (and I believe are accurate) then they come to the above portion and the "splain'in" begins or is glossed over. That's fine, because we have what is revealed and the "mission execution" is done by Jesus (Yeshua) and we should realize that fact:)
I think what we of this age need to remember is our charter. To watch and be ready and be found worthy when He comes for us. That is VERY clear in all the epistles and I might add was a MAJOR emphasis by Yeshua (Jesus).
Surely you don’t limit the workings of the grace of God to what happened at Calvary do you?
I agree we are not certain 100% exactly the point. My point originally is we should not be using eschatology to draw a conclusion that Peter preached a different Gospel than Paul. I don't think it was you I responded to perhaps smvoice.
How this conversation started between Christ Blood bought Christians was the article at hand. The article emphasized if we abide in Christ we obey Him. If we love Him we will obey Him. That is true for all ages going back to Adam and Eve. Being saved by Grace through faith does not exempt us from obeying Him.
Now we all know saving faith produces an obedient heart and mind. Romans 7 Paul tells us we will not be perfect, however our mission is obey Him, share Him with others, and do His Will. When we fall short we have Him as a Advocate to the Father.
If we think JMac is giving a legalistic sermon then perhaps I will post a few from Spurgeon, Gill and Henry. They make the same points a believer being obedient. When we say we have faith, that implies in our English language there is faithfulness from the person. I am not promoting a monastic life in the desert, or saying those saved lose their salvation, or only the saved sin no more...No way, and neither is JMac. I am not perfect, none of us are and through God conforming us to His Son's Image we are works in progress. No doubt.
On the prophecy end of this discussion? We all seem to have different varying understandings of eschatology. I think that is fine because although we have much to study, we cannot be 100% certain on many things. We know for certain what Jesus and the apostles gave us. We are to be expectantly waiting in all ages for the immediate return of Messiah Jesus, and keep doing the things He told us to do which the crowning jewel is the Great Commission.
In my opinion we do well to read the first three chapters of Revelation closely because it applied to the churches then as it does today. I might add Jesus was very directive to those churches and emphasized endurance.
I truly believe God revealed a lot of prophecy to us to be used to witness to unbelievers. Prophecy shows there is an end game and all will have to answer to God.
I would challenge you to determine who else it can be. The verse sasy “He who now letteth”
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Therefore it can’t be the body of Christ, the church and there is no other restrainer. The only restrainer of iniquity is the Holy Spirit and His work through the church.
I did not misunderstand your post, I reposted the entire passage because verse 3:31 was omitted which wraps up the discussion and makes an important point.
Speculation at best.
Oh, I don't know - I have been exactly where David was when he wrote Psalm 51...
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
(e-Sword:KJV)
Would you say then that the Holy Spirit was removed when Jesus was born to be reintroduced after He ascended? Surely not.
I would not presume to understand the workings of YHWH in the first place.
All his enemies are not “put under his feet” until His kingdom is set up on this earth at the beginning of the millennium after the last battle at Armageddon.
Precisely... Ergo, the survivors of Armageddon are not His enemies.
The rest of your post shows a clear misunderstanding of the seven year tribulation and the purpose for it.
Speculation at best... : )
No. As stated (I think by you) even the OT saints looked for the Day of Calvary. My point is we are on this side of the Cross and there is only one Gospel.
When Peter finishes his great sermon, the people are convicted by what he has said. They were pricked in their heart and asked Peter and the rest of the apostles "what shall we do?" Here's Peter's chance to preach the good news of the Cross.
Then Peter said unto them "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast." HOORAY!! Peter has just given the "same gospel" that Paul and others used, the gospel of the grace of God...
Except that is NOT what Peter said. "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38).
Show me where, in Scripture, Peter and the 11 gave the gospel of the grace of God in their sermon. They were giving the same gospel that John the Baptist gave, Christ gave, the one Christ gave to Peter and the 11...the gospel of the kingdom, for a kingdom of believers, Israel.
They are not the same. No matter how much a person wants to believe that. They are different. Plainly so.
It is for this very reason (the prophets) that I rejected the replacement theology of Calvinism, and later the dispensationalists too - albeit that the dispensationalists are close by. Unlike a school test, the answers are in the front of the Book, provided by the prophets : ) ... If one's eschatology can't 'add up' to the answer we already know, then another way must be found. Dispensationalism is good, in that it recognizes the prophets, and in that the power of YHWH - but without knowledge of the Holy Days, times and seasons, Jubilees, and the Torah generally, they work at a disadvantage.
I think what we of this age need to remember is our charter. To watch and be ready and be found worthy when He comes for us. That is VERY clear in all the epistles and I might add was a MAJOR emphasis by Yeshua (Jesus).
There is truth, no doubt... but steel sharpens steel, eh? Isn't that how we get ready?
How this conversation started between Christ Blood bought Christians was the article at hand. The article emphasized if we abide in Christ we obey Him.
As I said earlier, no one is saying that it’s a different Gospel. It’s simply that God deals with His people differently at different times and in different dispensations. I would think that we all agree that God dealt with Adam differently before Adam sinned than after. God dealt differently with people before He gave the law than after. Likewise before and after Christ’s death and resurrection. Well, it’s different after Pentecost as well. It’s all the same Gospel, just different dispensations. Since Pentecost we are in the dispensation of grace.
>> How this conversation started between Christ Blood bought Christians was the article at hand. The article emphasized if we abide in Christ we obey Him.<<
No doubt about that. The only thing some of us saw is the emphasis on the external motivation rather than the internal indwelling of the Holy Spirit precipitating a desire to please God.
That is what disciples DO. More importantly, that is what a wife does. She obeys him, because she loves him.
I wonder if people differentiate when it comes to the “kingdom of believers” and the “body of Christ”. Correct me if I’m wrong but the “body of Christ” aka the bride of Christ rules with Christ over the “kingdom of Christ”. Those who live on this earth during the millennium are not from this “age of grace”.
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