Posted on 10/30/2013 7:29:53 PM PDT by Olympiad Fisherman
There is one area of theology that Catholics, Orthodox, and even the Protestant Reformers, are embarrassed by - the Messianic Kingdom prophesied by the Old Testament and later limited to 1,000 years by the apostle John (Isaiah 11:1-10; Revelation 20:1-10) before Eternity sets in (Revelation 20:11-22:21). Yet most of the early church fathers believed in Pre-Millennialism, which was a common orthodox belief up until Augustine's City of God. Since Augustine, eschatology has been largely ignored by much of Christendom, even though the Bible is literally filled with many prophecies ...
(Excerpt) Read more at 1024project.com ...
I believe there are some misstatements in this, as I explain in my book Christian Hope through Fulfilled Prophecy. See www.prophecyquestions.wordpress.com.
Thanks for posting!
Tommy Ice has done an incredible amount of work in this area, and has even shown that were Puritans in England going back to the 1600’s who not only believed in Pre-Millennialism, but also held to a rapture of the church - and in some cases - even a pre-tribulation rapture.
I am not a preterist, which in my book, is a form of eschatological unbelief that has plagued the church since Constantine and Augustine. This has led to a very esoteric and mystical view of heaven which few Christian folks will make sacrifices for, and has its timeless roots in Greek philosophy rather than in the prophetic-historical tradition that undergirds the entire Bible.
Historically speaking, none of the basic protestant eschatologies - pre, mid or postmil - have ever been held to be heretical by the orthodox church. I can see this is going to be a fun thread....
Related threads:
Four Views on the Millennium
Evangelical scholars solve Book of Revelation's mysteries
Ezekiel's last chapters describe the Day of the LORD which John is taken to, in Revelation 1, to write down a 360 degree look into the transition of this flesh age unto the end and forward. Peter tells us how long a ‘day’ with the Lord is in IIPeter 3.
Paul describes in ICorinthians 15 there are two bodies and the flesh body is temporal. And even some of the spiritual bodies, the body not seeable unless God wills it to be seen, are mortal, need to be taught without the blindness of flesh.
After all there are some who are given the spirit of slumber for their own protection according to Paul, (Romans 11:5-11 who quotes Isaiah 29:10
Romans 5:8 (According as it is written, “God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear”:) unto this day.
9 And David saith, “Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always,” ......
Flesh man preachers and loved ones have no power or authority to remove this God appointed spirit of slumber. So while some church denominations preach otherwise, there are apparently many since Christ died who for whatever reason will be taught the WORD during the ‘day of the LORD’, or as commonly called the millennium, which literally means a thousand years.
I could only wish that the Orthodox would therefore emphasize Pre-Millennial teaching and eschatology and return back to the their ancient roots which they are supposedly so attached to.
“And so when they got out upon the land, they saw a charcoal fire already laid, and fish placed on it, and bread. Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have now caught.” Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples ventured to question Him, “Who are You?” knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the bread, and gave them, and the fish likewise. This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after He was raised from the dead (John 21:9-14).”
“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom (Matthew 26:29).”
And the children of Israel newly freed from bondage were fed angels food. Called Manna, which means ‘what is that’? What does that word ‘angel’ mean? Once the flesh dies it returns to the dirt/dust from which it came Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust (flesh) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
Bookmarked
“But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ‘? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (Matthew 22:31-32)
No it doesn't. This is virtually the mantra of some Protestant radio personalities. However, it is totally and completely false. Paul did not say, "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." What he actually said was this:
"6 So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience" (2 Corinthians 5:6-11).
Notice that Paul is speaking of himself with the plural "we" in this passage, as he shows in verse 11, mentioning his evangelizing ministry and contrasting the "we" who persuade men and are known to God, with the hope that "your conscience" also has the same view of us. His words clearly have application to other people in principal, but he is speaking primarily of himself.
So what Paul says here is (v. 6) that he knows while he is in the body he is away from the Lord, which is certainly something that is true. We are not in the immediate, unmasked, visible presence of Christ in this life.
Paul then states (v. 8) that he would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. This is the one which Protestant radio personalities slur into "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." That is not what Paul said.
First of all, he is speaking concerning himself, remember, not concerning people in general. There are quite a lot of Christians, and to be frank, it is the majority of them, who would much rather be present in the body than die and go to be with Jesus. Paul's preference for death to be with Jesus over life to stay in the body is nothing like a universal sentiment among Christians.
Second, he is expressing a desire. He desires something to happen. But there is a big difference between saying that one wants something to happen and that it will infallibly happen.
Third, there is an even bigger difference between saying one wants two things to happen and to say that when one happens the other will happen instantaneously. For example, if I as a single person said, "I want to go home and eat dinner," I would not mean that the instant I go home I will be eating dinner. Since I am a single person, before I can eat dinner I have to make dinner. There is obviously some time lag between my home-going and my dinner-eating. The same would can be said in the case of a person who says, "I want to go home and watch my favorite program." When one goes home, that does not mean one is instantaneously watching one's favorite program. In fact, it may be hours before one's favorite program comes on.
And notice that in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man Jesus pictures the dead soul as being carried by angels to his place of rest (Luke 16:22). Obviously, under this image, some transport time is pictured.
Fourth, it also does not follow, even if one thing automatically follows from another that the two are identical. If B follows from A , it does not warrant the statement that A is B , yet this is precisely the way in which Protestant radio personalities warp Paul's language when they declare, "Paul says, 'To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.'" They say this in such a way that it sounds like a direct quote, not a summary, and because many people never look up the verse to see what Paul actually says, they never realize that it isn't a direct quote, and so they are misled into thinking Scripture says something it does not. Thus this (inaccurate) summary of Paul's language has passed into the realm of myth. It is one of those mythical verses that people have heard so often they think the Bible says it even though it actually doesn't (for example, "Spare the rod and spoil the child," "The lion shall lie down with the lamb," (among Pentecostals:) "Speaking in tongues is the evidence of baptism in the Holy Ghost," and the king of all mythical verses: "He helps those who help themselves"). The Protestant radio personalities thus contribute not only to the Biblical illiteracy of society in saying this, but to the Biblical mis-literacy.
And Luke tells us that Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, which means that Abraham is still alive in the presence of God. And even that 'rich' man across the gulf with those that did not overcome during their flesh journey could see Abraham and Lazarus.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell....
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
(How does one partake of something if they did not already exist?)
back to verse 14 'He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death (of flesh, because the Spirit of Christ sure did not die) He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil:
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the 'breath of life' (means soul); and man became a living soul.
It is not a new thing that these flesh bodies are a temporal vessel to house the soul/spirit intellect through this flesh journey. It was taught and written from the beginning = Genesis.
And Paul would never contradict Solomon... so somebody has misinformed you to claim otherwise.
Solomon finishes up his instruction on the two different bodies with this Chapter 12 of Ecclesiastes
1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth,
while the evil days come not, nor the years draw night, when thou shalt say, ‘I have no pleasure in them;’
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way,
and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden,
and desire shall fall: (because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:)
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust (Genesis 2:7) return to the earth as it was: and the (get this) spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
8 “Vanity of vanities,” saith the preacher; “all is vanity.”
9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the People knowledge; yes, he gave good heed, and sought out,
and set in order many proverbs.
10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words:
and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise
are as goads, (am reminded of Saul's trip to Damascus and the question asked of him before he was called Paul.)
and as nails fastened
by the masters of assemblies,
which are given from one shepherd. (See even the prophets taught Christ.)
12 And further,
by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the (guess what) flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Well being a follower of that first Protestant, Christ Himself, I use the King James Version.....
And my KJV reads accurately Paul's writing of verse 8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the LORD...
Why Paul was the most educated in the Hebrew Bible that penned the majority of the so called New Testament and Paul surely had read the wise words penned by Solomon, as Paul writes a whole lot like Solomon.
When you say "in my book", are you speaking literally (you wrote a book), or allegorically (in your way of thinking)?
When I say “My book” I mean the Bible - pun intended ...
Yep.
That’s the main function of the Pre-Tribulation Research Cneter ....
... to document the extent and presence of millennialism THROUGHOUT church history.
Yes, I’ve really appreciated the valuable resources at http://www.pre-trib.org/articles
And the upcoming Dec. conference looks like it’ll be great, as usual.
I hadn’t heard of http://1024project.com/ until now, though I recognize many of the names there. So thanks for pointing me to this new resource.
Keep fighting the good fight!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.