Posted on 10/26/2013 4:56:26 AM PDT by Colofornian
I have recently been in conversation with some LDS bloggers on the topic of modern revelation. One of the bloggers expressed concern when I brought up the issue of demonic spirits having the ability to masquerade as deity or angels of light. He pointed out that if this were true how could anyone be sure that their personal revelations were of God?
He expressed precisely the concern that evangelicals have regarding the place of revelation in LDS theology. The contention of evangelicals has consistently been that modern revelation should not be exactly backwards from previous revelation. If it is, we believe it is coming from another source since the Bible warns us not to receive “another gospel” or “another Jesus” (Gal. 1:6-9, II Cor. 11:3) and we are told that Satan will try to counterfeit the true.
“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
Joseph Smith knew about revelations from another source. When a prophecy he made didn’t come true, he returned to his seer stone to seek another revelation and was told “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, chapter 4). I happen to agree with this revelation (whatever source it came from) because it lines up with what we are taught in the Bible which is my standard for discerning truth from error / God from Satan.
The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?” (Jer. 17:9)
For this reason, I don’t rely on feelings for a standard of discerning truth since my heart can deceive me. I trust Christ’s promise that He would preserve His words and I take His example that He never questioned the reliability of the OT scriptures when He was on earth, but He treated them as true, factual history and authoritative. Some LDS have told me that they use the Bible for their standard or that they don’t see a contradiction between the Bible and modern revelations so I will list a few examples of what I am talking about here and hopefully get some responses from LDS on how they reconcile what appear to me as diametrically opposed theology.
For example, the Bible says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)
BoM: “it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)
The Bible: “And He said unto me, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me” (2 Corinthians 12:9)
BoM: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you…” (Moroni 10:32)
The Bible: “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8)
BoM: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins” (Alma 11:37)
The Bible: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us…that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5)
Apostle Spencer Kimball: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).
What are the “works of the gospel” according to Jesus?
“Then they said unto Him, ‘What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?’ Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent’” (John 6:29)
***Note: Before someone responds with James 2, I am not saying we can claim to have faith and then not manifest the works that should accompany true faith. James was written to address this specific problem as people were claiming the name of Christ, but in their works they denied Him.
#1...ML, we don't recommend people praying about the Quran/Koran for its bottom-line truth-test...or the Urantia files, either (supposedly a UFO cultic type of book with occultic phenomena attached)...
#2...Here's what winds up happening...where "burning bosoms" are even attributed to the dead subtly contacting Mormons in Mormon temples:
"I haven't actually seen any of them, but sometimes when I have finished an endowment or a sealing session in the Salt Lake Temple my bosom has burned, and I have known keep within me that those persons for whom I have officiated have accepted that work." (Source: Bountiful Second Ward Chapel, Aug. 12, 1949 "Disembodied Spirit Life" section of Life Eternal: A Series of Four Lectures Lynn A. McKinlay, Deseret Book Co. 1972, p. 206...Note: Deseret Book Co. is owned by the Mormon church]
So a "burning bosom" now means ghosts/spirits contacting you in your Mormon temple runs, Molan Labe?
Yeah, just addressed this in post #101 to Molan Labe.
You seem to have missed WHAT Christ did...
“while he opened to us the scriptures?”
Feelings apart from Objective revelation could just as easily be the pizza you ate or the demon who has a revelation for you...
Your quote from James says that if you ask the Lord for wisdom, it will be given to you (if you ask with unwavering faith, as explained in the next few verses). It doesn’t say anything about receiving answers or feelings from the Holy Ghost. Wisdom is the ability to discern things for yourself, by having good judgement, not relying on God to be a magic 8-ball for you as a replacement for exercising good judgement.
I am sure that if you pray to the Lord with unwavering faith to give you the wisdom to tell whether the BoM is from Him or not, he will give you that wisdom. Then it is up to you to apply that wisdom and abide by the conclusion it provides, rather than your subjective feelings on the matter.
Any medium or spiritualist would probably make the same claims, that they receive “feelings” or “sensations” from the other side. People at a seance will say the same things. Is it self-delusion, hysteria, confirmation bias, or something real?
We simply have no real means to determine, one way or another. That’s why mediums and the like can get away with taking peoples’ money for their dubious services and not get thrown in jail for fraud. We can be pretty sure that they are all frauds, but there is no objective standard available to disprove them, just as there is no objective standard to prove their claims.
It’s that lack of objectivity that opens the door to all sorts of flim flam, and to suggest that God would expect rational people to abandon objectivity in order to obtain salvation is an insult to God. I can’t believe that a loving God would want us to act like “rubes” and open ourselves up to any wolf that would devour us, which is what the Mormons suggest we do by abandoning objective judgement of their claims.
“Once it gets us to where we’re bottled up in our own pride to where we can’t recognize the prophets that God sends to guide us in these latter days, well, it’s got us.”
God didn’t tell us to recognize prophets by asking the Holy Ghost or our feelings. God told us to examine their prophecies, to see if their message was in line with the prophets that came before (no contradictions), and also to see if their prophecies came true (no false prophecies). Since your latter-day “prophets” have failed both tests, over and over, I’d say the ones who can’t recognize prophets are in your camp.
“And there we are....you got that “loving feeling” I got squat.”
So, you’re saying ex-Mormons have “lost that loving feeling.... oh, that loving feeling”?
:)
Agreement? Let's look @ these Mormon leader quotes that you would NEVER hear a Mormon missionary utter...
Look @ all of these occultic temple-based exclusive 'Add-ons' to 'gospel' Mormons pile on:
* "President Howard W. Hunter explained the importance of temple ordinances: 'All our efforts in proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the Saints, and redeeming the dead lead to the holy temple. This is because the temple ordinances are absolutely crucial; we cannot return to God's presence without them." (Conference Report, Oct. 1994, 118; Ensign, Nov. 94, p. 88)
Quote of such import that it was included in the Mormon church's "Basic Manual for Priesthood Holders, Part B of "Duties & Blessings of the Priesthood" p. 68 (2000)
* "Only in the temple can we receive ordinances and make covenants that will qualify us to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father and our Savior." Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I 1993, p. 83
* "With temple men can be exalted; without them there is no exaltation," Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary, vol. I, p. 99
* "A person cannot know the Lord, cannot receive the Lord, unless he goes into the place where the Lord reveals himself--His house, the Temple--and receives the fulness of the Priesthood. He can't be exalted with only a portion of the Priesthood; he has to have it all." Sept. 9, 1949 Bountiful Third Ward Chapel "Celestial Life" Life Eternal: A Series of Four Lectures Lynn A. McKinlay, Deseret Book Co. 1972, p. 282
Why how "We're Christians, too" and how "interfaith-minded" they are!!!
They've Mormonized Heavenly Father's presence for the married temple 'Mormonized' ONLY!
When I said squat, I was being kind, I should have said I do not listen to NOT the Word of God.
JS was a con, Jesus promised His Word would not fail, in order to beleive JS, you also have to beleive Jesus was a liar.
Jesus was not a liar...and there you have it.
Being kind, I should have just said I do not listen to NOT the Word of God.
You know, the Holy Spirit must have been anticipating your comment...'cause this very morning I typed this quote into a notepad doc:
"His hope for us is eternal life. We qualify for it by obedience to covenants and ordinances of the temple--for ourselves, our families, and our ancestors." Russell M. Nelson, "Now is the time to prepare," Ensign (Conference edition), May 2005 p. 18
And right above that quote this a.m., I wrote: "Temple-works-righteousness"
Jesus doesn't qualify you; why you & temple Mormons are trying to qualify yourselves based upon your puny efforts! All based on a merit badge...as if you think you can change God's mind about who you are!
You: Thanks for mentioning the Temple... I've been to the Temple many times and am always amazed at how strongly I feel the Spirit of God there.
Sorry...doesn't wash.
What do I mean?
The Mormon church doesn't bill its temple as some sort of set apart retreat center; and not very often is the focus of it presented as a meditation center.
Nope. Per one of your previous "prophets" -- Howard W. Hunter:
"The WHOLE purpose of the Church...is to qualify individuals to return to the presence of God. That can only be done by their receiving the ordinances and making covenants in the temple" (Howard W. Hunter, Regional Representatives' seminar, April 3, 1987, as quoted in Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I 1993 p. 84
There ya go...Your ENTIRE, "WHOLE PURPOSE" is the wholly self-focus to try to qualify yourself in what you claim the Mormon Jesus couldn't even do for you ...as if Jesus Christ wasn't already "the Way" (John 14:6) -- and Mormons have to carve out their own temple way.
And even in the only non-self-focus of trying to qualify yourself in the temple is to be obsessed with the dead!
"The Prophet Joseph Smith...had received the revelations (sections 124, 127, 128, and 132) which pertain directly to this work. And during the last part of his life he said, 'This subject was upon my mind more than any other.'" The Holy Temple, Boyd K. Packer, p. 191 1980 Bookcraft
Mormonism has replaced the cross as "the Way" with temple-ordinance ritualism in which Mormons self-identify as "redeemers"..."saviors on Mt. Zion"..."deliverers from spirit prison" and the like...but there is no other Redeemer/Savior/Deliverer. Nobody is worthy of that title save Him!
So, per Mormonism's "bad news," what Jesus did on the cross can't bring people back into heavenly Father's presence in true reconciliation, eh? Yet even Mormon leaders say all that Baptism of the dead proxy nonsense won't reconcile people to Heavenly Father, either!
(...the most I've seen them say is that marriage endowments for the dead may unite a couple again...and even that isn't advertised too widely by too many Mormon general authorities.)
“Oh really? Was the law of Moses in line with the Abraham?”
Laws and prophecies are two separate things. God is sovereign, so He can freely change the laws He gives us, or add to them, with no theological contradiction.
Prophecies, on the other hand, state facts ascertained through divine revelation. God can’t lie, so those facts can’t be contradictory. If they are, then one or the other prophet (or both) must be false. If the prophet is self-contradictory, then they are automatically a false prophet.
“Based on the Lord’s interpretation of events not ours.”
Sure, we hardly ever can expect exactly how a prophecy will be fulfilled, because the Lord’s work is a mystery to us. However, if we can ascertain the general prediction of the prophecy, as Christians aught to at least have enough discernment to do most of the time, then we can see whether or not it has been fulfilled. So the question isn’t “did the prophecy get fulfilled in a certain way”, but simply “did the prophecy get fulfilled”?
“I’m a little shocked that the evangelicals try to claim D&C 87 didn’t happen. When it clearly did.”
Perhaps it did. The test of a prophet isn’t whether he got one right, though. It’s whether he didn’t get any wrong.
“What James says is very simple; if you don’t know something and you want to know it, ask your Father in Heaven and have faith you’ll get an answer and He will answer. “
No.
What God promises in this context is the ability to see the importance of enduring trials and persevering in them faithfully. You wrested one verse out of its context to try to justify abandoning objective revelation for your subjective feelings.
You are not speaking of the Word, the Word was not abondined.
Jesus was not a liar His Word did not fail
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