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To: annalex
I have read from the Bible a time or two, but reading it into the intellect, and even memorizing it, does not necessarily demonstrate understanding it. The passage you are quoting here is from the DRB translation, and that is fine; it is almost identical to the AV. However, here is the comport of this passage, which is about comparing two births:

Table Illustrating Symbolism of Jn. 3:3-8 (DRB)

Birth order . . . Substance . . . Result produced . . . Symbolism . . . Growth medium

First birth . . . . of the flesh . . . a new fleshly infant . . . water . . . amniotic fluid

Second birth . . of the Spirit . . a new spiritual infant . . Spirit . . . Spoken Word (hrema)

The analogy that Jesus offers Nicodemus is in the same mode as the thought predicament Nicodemus suggests to Jesus. Jesus' connection of literal with figurative is obvious and straightforward.

It appears to me that if you try to attach water baptism to spiritual birth, your teachers are greatly confused, and still more spiritually ignorant than Nicodemus was before he was shown a great truth.

Do you understand the above table? One would have to make oneself blind to miss it. But Nicodemus' spiritual eyes were opened by the entry of the Spoken Word, and he saw it.

345 posted on 10/24/2013 7:09:24 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1
I understand your theological fantasy, but I read the text as written (either renatus fuerit or natus fuerit) and see a reference to second birth: of water and spirit. I see the same in 1 Peter 3:21, and in the fact that water was necessary for baptism in all recorded history of the Catholic Church:

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized (Acts 10:47)

See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized? (Acts 8:36)

If baptism was somehow opposed to birth "of water" why try to get water in an arid climate?

And why would Jesus speak in a riddle when Nicodemus asked a direct and honest question? If He meant birth by womb and birth by spirit He could say so plainly, since Nicodemus' reference was to the "womb" and not to "amneotic fluid". Why did Our Lord bring up "water", Himself was baptized in water, and as we see in the Acts, the Apostolic Church baptized in water?

352 posted on 10/24/2013 6:12:49 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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