Posted on 10/16/2013 2:11:56 PM PDT by marshmallow
Writing in America Magazine, Auxiliary Bishop Robert McElroy of San Francisco argued that the Church in the United States “must elevate the issue of poverty to the very top of its political agenda, establishing poverty alongside abortion as the pre-eminent moral issues the Catholic community pursues at this moment in our nation’s history.”
“Both abortion and poverty countenance the deaths of millions of children in a world where government action could end the slaughter,” he continued. “Both abortion and poverty, each in its own way and to its own degree, constitute an assault on the very core of the dignity of the human person, instrumentalizing life as part of a throwaway culture. The cry of the unborn and the cry of the poor must be at the core of Catholic political conversation in the coming years because these realities dwarf other threats to human life and dignity that confront us today.”
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicculture.org ...
I understand your point. However Paul rightly deemed "us" as members of the Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head. Jesus said in John 15: "6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."
So that tells me the members of the Body should not be warring against the Head. And that if you have members that do not abide with the Head to cut them off.
Put frankly, you can say all day this bishop and that Pope don't represent the church, but by not dismissing them and putting those that do abide in the ways of the Master Jesus Christ the Head of the Body in place, you condone the leaders and teachers of error.
True, but none of those men claimed to be infallible either.
No, I get the logic of it. What he says makes sense. It is his solution 'government.' I have been to too many bad places in this world over the past 24 years. The really starving poor all live in countries where their government does not care there are poor and if missionaries and NGO groups go there to feed those poor, they are either forced out, kidnapped, murdered or the despotic government takes the food and gives it to political cronies. Plus these nations are mostly Muslim in belief or primitive and give not a hoot what nice Francis in the pointy hat has to say.
So if the concern is over these truly, truly horribly poor people then directly enforcing aid must get into these despotic countries to help the poor. The best thing Francis can do to make this happen, I mean really get help where it is really needed is to call a Poverty Crusade where willing nations use military force to thoroughly crush the despots, occupy the country and minister to the poor. We all know that will never happen, and also know that war leads to more suffering and more poverty. So there you have it. The "poor" in developed countries aren't really poor by the standards of the really desperate poor. There is enough personal wealth in our country alone to handle by charity our poor.
Another dingbat Bishop.
Will they ever clean house?
That's an interesting point. We can leave aside the Wesleys, who held themselves in the tradition of the Church of England and did not claim a unique theological truth, but more like an approach to Christian practice.
However, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox (and Arminius and Melancthon and other "losers" in the Reformation struggle) were sufficiently persuaded of their absolute Truthiness that they established states in which disagreement was punished with death. The way I see it, that's as near a claim of infallibility as makes no difference.
“No difference between starvation and abortion...”
Sorry, that doesn't fly.
There are many poor people in the world. There are also many unborn children brought to abortion clinics. Compared to the percentage of unborn children who die when brought to abortion clinics, the percentage of poor people who die of starvation from poverty is relatively modest.
As well, the entire purpose of seeking an abortion is to kill the unborn child. There is no such teleology of poverty.
My parents grew up poor. Neither died of starvation. Neither did any of their brothers or sisters, eight siblings in total. My grandparents were all poor. No one died of starvation. My father's mother was one of 10 children. All were poor. None died of starvation.
They all came from Italy. They came from desperately poor families. That's why they came to this country, because “poor” in this country was a darned sight better than “poor” in Italy at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries.
Yet, my parents have been to Italy and have met our cousins who are the children and grandchildren of the ones who stayed behind. Even during the worst of times, none of these lateral ancestors died of starvation.
Yet, nearly 100% of unborn children on whom abortion is committed die.
I don't wish to minimize the tragedy of poverty, the difficulties that go with it. As I said, my own parents grew up poor, and when they were alive, they related stories to us that were sometimes heartbreaking.
But putting poverty on the same level as abortion is stupid and evil.
But I've come to expect no different from most bishops, sadly.
sitetest
Our Lord stated you will always have the poor, so the idea that we will ever eliminate poverty is completely unbiblical. Not so with abortion.
In the America piece, this bishop stated:
So it is with the issue of poverty. The core teaching of the church on the role of government in combating poverty declares that in addition to promoting conditions that provide meaningful jobs for their citizens, nations must provide a humane threshold of income, health benefits and housing. Just as important, as Pope Francis has repeatedly taught, wealthy nations must work ardently to reduce gross inequalities of wealth within their borders and beyond. Accomplishing these goals requires a series of complex prudential decisions about financial structures, incentives for wealth creation and income support programs that enhance rather than undermine family life. Many different types of choices are compatible within a full commitment to Catholic teachings on economic justice.
While, yes, Christian teaching mandates generosity to the poor, how that is done is a different issue:
In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.
In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.
15. And in addition to injustice, it is only too evident what an upset and disturbance there would be in all classes, and to how intolerable and hateful a slavery citizens would be subjected. The door would be thrown open to envy, to mutual invective, and to discord; the sources of wealth themselves would run dry, for no one would have any interest in exerting his talents or his industry; and that ideal equality about which they entertain pleasant dreams would be in reality the levelling down of all to a like condition of misery and degradation. Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property. This being established, we proceed to show where the remedy sought for must be found.…
…17. It must be first of all recognized that the condition of things inherent in human affairs must be borne with, for it is impossible to reduce civil society to one dead level. Socialists may in that intent do their utmost, but all striving against nature is in vain. There naturally exist among mankind manifold differences of the most important kind; people differ in capacity, skill, health, strength; and unequal fortune is a necessary result of unequal condition. Such unequality is far from being disadvantageous either to individuals or to the community. Social and public life can only be maintained by means of various kinds of capacity for business and the playing of many parts; and each man, as a rule, chooses the part which suits his own peculiar domestic condition.…
…38. Here, however, it is expedient to bring under special notice certain matters of moment. First of all, there is the duty of safeguarding private property by legal enactment and protection. Most of all it is essential, where the passion of greed is so strong, to keep the populace within the line of duty; for, if all may justly strive to better their condition, neither justice nor the common good allows any individual to seize upon that which belongs to another, or, under the futile and shallow pretext of equality, to lay violent hands on other people's possessions. Most true it is that by far the larger part of the workers prefer to better themselves by honest labor rather than by doing any wrong to others. But there are not a few who are imbued with evil principles and eager for revolutionary change, whose main purpose is to stir up disorder and incite their fellows to acts of violence. The authority of the law should intervene to put restraint upon such firebrands, to save the working classes from being led astray by their maneuvers, and to protect lawful owners from spoliation.…
So which one we follow? The teaching of AMCHURCH™ or the teachings of the Catholic Church?
"Those who give scandal, are guilty of spiritual murder. Those who take scandal, are guilty of spiritual suicide."
--St.Francis de Sales
Don't let sinners drive your from the Church.
Please give this a read --- how to respond to sin in the Church --- with holiness (Link)
Seriously, it helped me.
Although your ancestors escaped death from starvation or malnutrition, that’s not the universal case. My friends from Mexico and Central America usually have more dead siblings than living ones, and it’s not unusual to see the classic “stunted” body type, due to famine, among men my age or younger. People are suffering and dying from poverty, all over the world.
(In the United States, this happens only if the parents are incompetent, since resources are more than adequate.)
However, you are correct that this is not the same as deliberate killing. Thomas Sowell has observed that there has never in recorded history been catastrophic starvation in a country with a free press. Starvation takes EFFORT on the part of government, to prevent food reaching the starving ... just as the promotion of abortion is a deliberate effort by our government. They want people to die.
I agree now more than ever that poverty is a big problem that we must address as Christians. The problem is that the best solution to poverty is a good job, not a handout. The current POTUS in not interested in good, new jobs. He is more interested in increasing benefits, and government jobs, which only redistribute wealth and does nothing to grow the economy.
When clergy get involved with anti-poverty promotions they just reenact all the old failed policies of wealth redistribution. We need to grow a bigger pie and unleash the energy and innovation of the American spirit.
I never said no one who is poor doesn't die of starvation. What I said is that a higher percentage of unborn children on whom abortion is committed die than poor people who starve to death.
I also said the teleological end of abortion is dead babies, the teleological end of poverty is not.
“People are suffering and dying from poverty, all over the world.”
As we were originally comparing death by abortion to death by starvation, that doesn't seem to go to the argument. Of course people suffer from poverty. But not that many, compared to abortion, die from it.
“My friends from Mexico and Central America usually have more dead siblings than living ones,...”
My wife's grandmother was one of thirteen children, precisely four of whom survived to adulthood. Yet, they were all decently fed. None died of starvation.
It's a false equivalency on the part of this bishop.
sitetest
I am going to go out on a limb: I’ll bet that if you consult the pro-lifers in San Francisco, they will tell you that this bishop is a life-long Democrat activist who has never lifted a finger to support the pro-life movement.
I agree.
Indeed the era was full of bloodshed, which I will clearly note is not following the Voice of The Good Shepherd. Be careful, however, Rome had its hands immersed in bloodshed as well. That is why I stated to one poster we should throw all the theologians out with the bath water and be like the believers in Berea who searched the Scriptures to see what Paul was telling them was true.
So call me a 'bad' Reformation 'soldier' and former Roman Catholic. I will not fall on my sword for Luther, Calvin, Knox et al nor any Pope who have blood on their hands. I will fall on my sword for The Good Shepherd for I hear His Voice. God the Father at the Transfiguration told the disciples to Listen to Jesus. We can't go wrong there.
If you would ask me what theologians best express my beliefs, I would say #1 Jesus Christ and #2 His apostles. Out of all the apostles, the one who received a direct commission to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles was St Paul of Tarsus. With Paul's background as a Pharisee, he was an expert on Hewbrew Scriptures specifically The Law. So out of the apostles Paul was the most qualified to encapsulate the doctrine of Salvation. He did so in his epistles and the crowning achievement IMO is Romans. It is all there.
So we have the direct Words of Jesus Christ (what we call these days the "red letters) in the Gospels; we have the Work of Christ accounted; We have His death, burial and Resurrection; We have Jesus giving the Great Commission to all His disciples and apostles; we have in Acts the Gospel preached in action by the apostles; and finally we have the written Holy Spirit inspired writings of the apostles in the epistles. All of the above is sufficient for us for the knowledge of salvation and godly living for Christ.
Another Communist Catholic Bishop...Seems you religion if full of them...
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