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To: count-your-change
In this Ephesians agrees. “...not our actions.” Indeed. It is not actions OR faith but actions AND faith.

I enjoy this type of conversation because it gets down to the bone and marrow of the Scriptures. So thanks!

If someone says they have saving faith and there is no good fruit evidenced, then James would say that faith is dead, basically called into question if it is true saving faith. In that I agree with you.,

Where we may disagree or have not established our positions on, is if human works+saving faith=justification. Looking at Paul's epistles and the OT examples he produces, our works do not count for our justification..."lest we should boast." Oh yes indeed there is WORK involved in Justification, but it is Jesus' Work.

Paul goes further in Romans 4 to point this out:

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say?

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. 8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

Now rightly James says if you have faith show me your works. And this is what I believe James is talking about:

Romans 12: Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

So we have to ask the question, within the Scriptural context, "does the horse come before the cart or the cart before the horse?" Do our works (hopefully good enough) justify us before saving faith or after? Does faith in Christ's Work on the Cross and Resurrection need a dash of redleghunter's works for justification? I say no! Christ's Work did it all, He justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

Now if I, redleghunter produce no fruit and claim I have saving faith, all the epistles tell me to examine my life to see if I had saving faith to begin with.

So a long way to answer your post...Saving faith is active and since the Root is Good, so will the fruit.

222 posted on 10/13/2013 11:23:06 AM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter

“Where we may disagree or have not established our positions on, is if human works+saving faith=justification.”

I’ll assume that by human works you mean those of our own choosing. I think that was the point of Matt. 7:22,23, that even powerful works if not done according to Christ’s will are termed “lawlessness”, and without merit.


228 posted on 10/13/2013 12:39:02 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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