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To: verga
I have tried several times to engage them in discussions about, the nature of the incarnation, the Trinity, infinity and eternity in relation to the Godhead, among others. The only response I get (paraphrased) "It ain't in the Bible"

All of the above are indeed derived from the Scriptures both old and new testaments. When we look at the various councils and debates, they point to the Bible.

That Holy Scriptures are God's revelation to mankind. It is not God's complete revelation as to His complete Nature. God may never reveal His True Nature to us even in the Kingdom. But He has revealed what He deems as important for us to know.

Francis Schaeffer once said to a group of atheists and agnostics reference to the Bible as God's revelation to mankind. He said "you may not think it is complete to answer all your questions, you may even think it is not the best answer; however it is the ONLY answer."

Now there are many, many RC beliefs and traditions that firmly point to the Bible. Some are the sanctity of life (life begins at conception because the OT tells us life begins with a father 'begetting' a child=conception); be fruitful and muliply (in the Bible clearly); the Trinity (all evidence is in the Bible both OT and NT--"let Us make man..."); marriage for life, no divorce (the CLEAR words of Jesus Christ in the gospels); the list goes on. I know because I was raised, educated and was a practicing RC.

The RCC even gets obedience correct in my opinion. Both the NT and OT "formula" for Salvation was and will always be Trust AND Obey. Where I think the RCC veers off course is the nature of this saving faith. The NT epistles are clear salvation is "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."

Where I depart company with some evangelicals is the NT is also VERY clear that saving faith PRODUCES works. Where I depart from Roman Catholics is these works do not save us, justify us. The fruits of our saving faith produces good works: "having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."(Philippians 1:11). And the key here of "filled with the fruit of righteousness" is that it "comes through Jesus Christ..." for God's praise and glory. I see more evidence in Scriptures (OT and NT) for Jesus' imputed righteousness than I do for the "infused" righteousness. In my opinion (and not poking anyone in the eye) I believe this is where the Roman Catholic church theology is incorrect.

Based on the above, I say in laymen's terms. Our works do not save us, but our saving faith produces works---This is faith in action. And if we claim saving faith and do not produce fruit, we are told to examine our lives. As Jesus Christ said "You will recognize them by their fruits."

Another point I would like to address is that the Scriptures are also clear that God is Sovereign in the Justification, Sanctification and Glorification processes. God does the calling, the convicting of the heart of the sinner leading to repentance, the justifying, the sanctification as conforming us to the Son's image and one day He will glorify our bodies in resurrection finally ridding us of the corruptable for incorruptable.

Thank you for the dialogue. I hope we can continue to converse on what I think has been a polite and informative discussion.

Grace and Peace!

249 posted on 10/13/2013 12:51:15 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
Thank you for an intelligent well written post.

If I might ask: Why do you view our righteousness as imputed rather than infused?

Revelation 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Clearly we must be perfected to enter into heaven. An imputed righteousness is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

255 posted on 10/13/2013 2:14:28 PM PDT by verga (Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis)
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